Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

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deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

Post by deducter » Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:40 pm

Borsook wrote:Hi, would not want to pester you, but is a 44west version is the works perhaps? After playing the mod is hard to go for Vanilla... :)
A newer version with a completely overhauled manual is in the works. I'm about 75% done with the manual.
Uhu wrote:Another problem would be that it would bring even less motivation to make DVs or capture non-important towns to make a little more prestige. Because I would gain so few prestige with 25% as the overall result of the "extra operation" would be absolute negative because of the losses in the fights.
The results are now also negative but at least - because of my very slow xp growing system - I can gain a little more experiences for my units.
orlinos wrote: Stop complaining and go down to 25%. :twisted:
Sometimes I don't understand how could the developers make such an easy gameplay in the GCs after they made such hard battles in the vanilla campaign (on Rommel level). It's OK that there should be easier levels for players but it had to be also a made a level which brings challenge for the hardcore players.
The reason is that players like you don't join the beta testing and voice your concerns. Most players want easy gameplay, all Tigers/Panthers etc. That's perfectly fine. The purpose of this mod is to create that extra level that gives a challenge to hardcore players, while keeping a historical feeling.

In any event, I get the impression that you save/reload to preserve units, replay scenarios for prestige, etc. I have no problem with any of that, but I don't think you should complain the game is too easy. My mod is extremely easy if you save/reload all the time and you play around with the experience rules so you give yourself all 4-5 star units by 1943. If you do it minimally or not at all, and you don't just adjust the experience rules, it is very hard in 1943-1945.

My personal recommendation for expert players is -75% prestige for 1939-1942 and -50% for 1943-1945, without changing the experience rules. It's what I playtest the mod on.

Uhu
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

Post by Uhu » Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:10 pm

deducter wrote: The reason is that players like you don't join the beta testing and voice your concerns. Most players want easy gameplay, all Tigers/Panthers etc.
It is only not understandable for me why is the big difference between the difficulty level in vanilla and GC? I would think the same gamesters/developers were part also at the making of the vanilla campaign...

- I don't load/save all the time. If something goes really wrong (core unit loss, extreme losses, not earning the objectives) than I reload from the setup phase. And I sometimes reload at the beginning when in the first turn the weather is not clear - I say for it that operations should begin in ideal weather. :lol:
- I use just the deducter's setting for all replacement. I don't intend to modify it. I think it will be much harder because my units will not get xp in no time (2-3 stars in 2-3 battles) but that's OK for me. I like it more when my units's xp grows in realistic way.

I like scenarios where I have really work for DV. Where I cannot make a DV at the first try. Where I have to memorize several locations and dates where and when enemy units arrive. I like to know that mostly I have to have an extra luck (at least with ideal weather) to make the DV. So, after many tries and anger when I finally make the DV I have really a good feeling that I could make it.

My problem is that GC missions are so boring because of the easiness - and although I try to remember that I "fight for the future" but it still brings not enjoyment to playing the actual battles that I know that - maybe- in 1944-45 there will be some though battles too. :? I good designed campaign should not to be so. With your mod is at least more historical the gameplay and because many units have a higher price at least in some ways it is also harder.
deducter wrote: In any event, I get the impression that you save/reload to preserve units, replay scenarios for prestige, etc. I have no problem with any of that, but I don't think you should complain the game is too easy. My mod is extremely easy if you save/reload all the time and you play around with the experience rules so you give yourself all 4-5 star units by 1943. If you do it minimally or not at all, and you don't just adjust the experience rules, it is very hard in 1943-1945.

My personal recommendation for expert players is -75% prestige for 1939-1942 and -50% for 1943-1945, without changing the experience rules. It's what I playtest the mod on.
I would vote to completely modify the prestige allocation for the overall campaign to make situations where (at least on Rommel level) the player have to be smart to "trade" with prestige points and really think about the ideal solutions for the given battle. I know this would be a lot of work so I don't say make it I just say that would help to make a solution for the prestige issue.

borsook79
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

Post by borsook79 » Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:03 pm

Well, if it's not enough challenge then try not reloading whatever happens. If you lose a couple of very experienced units next scenarios are going to be more fun. :)
Uhu wrote:
deducter wrote: The reason is that players like you don't join the beta testing and voice your concerns. Most players want easy gameplay, all Tigers/Panthers etc.
It is only not understandable for me why is the big difference between the difficulty level in vanilla and GC? I would think the same gamesters/developers were part also at the making of the vanilla campaign...

- I don't load/save all the time. If something goes really wrong (core unit loss, extreme losses, not earning the objectives) than I reload from the setup phase. And I sometimes reload at the beginning when in the first turn the weather is not clear - I say for it that operations should begin in ideal weather. :lol:
- I use just the deducter's setting for all replacement. I don't intend to modify it. I think it will be much harder because my units will not get xp in no time (2-3 stars in 2-3 battles) but that's OK for me. I like it more when my units's xp grows in realistic way.

I like scenarios where I have really work for DV. Where I cannot make a DV at the first try. Where I have to memorize several locations and dates where and when enemy units arrive. I like to know that mostly I have to have an extra luck (at least with ideal weather) to make the DV. So, after many tries and anger when I finally make the DV I have really a good feeling that I could make it.

My problem is that GC missions are so boring because of the easiness - and although I try to remember that I "fight for the future" but it still brings not enjoyment to playing the actual battles that I know that - maybe- in 1944-45 there will be some though battles too. :? I good designed campaign should not to be so. With your mod is at least more historical the gameplay and because many units have a higher price at least in some ways it is also harder.
deducter wrote: In any event, I get the impression that you save/reload to preserve units, replay scenarios for prestige, etc. I have no problem with any of that, but I don't think you should complain the game is too easy. My mod is extremely easy if you save/reload all the time and you play around with the experience rules so you give yourself all 4-5 star units by 1943. If you do it minimally or not at all, and you don't just adjust the experience rules, it is very hard in 1943-1945.

My personal recommendation for expert players is -75% prestige for 1939-1942 and -50% for 1943-1945, without changing the experience rules. It's what I playtest the mod on.
I would vote to completely modify the prestige allocation for the overall campaign to make situations where (at least on Rommel level) the player have to be smart to "trade" with prestige points and really think about the ideal solutions for the given battle. I know this would be a lot of work so I don't say make it I just say that would help to make a solution for the prestige issue.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." - G.B. Shaw

4kEY
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

Post by 4kEY » Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:53 am

While we're on the subject of replaying scenarios for prestige, I'm replaying Kremenchug because I decided to wait until '44 to do Panther upgrades. I discovered something vey cool: strongpoints can be transported by rail. This is highly useful for this scenario.

deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

Post by deducter » Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:04 am

4kEY wrote:While we're on the subject of replaying scenarios for prestige, I'm replaying Kremenchug because I decided to wait until '44 to do Panther upgrades. I discovered something vey cool: strongpoints can be transported by rail. This is highly useful for this scenario.
I've never noticed this thing about strongpoints. I've thought about doing an overhaul of strongpoints, but frankly, it doesn't seem like it would add too much to the game for a good amount of work. I'm happy to let this issue slide for now.

I have absolutely no issues with anyone replaying scenarios. I replay scenarios on occasion. My only caveat is that you shouldn't complain that the game is too easy if you do so on a regular basis. The fact is that 1939-1942 is very easy, and 1943 is even easier on vanilla settings. By default, this is due to the way the game design is, that the core snowballs into an unstoppable juggernaut and the AI would have to be given all super units to present a credible challenge. In this mod, I try to slow down, even reverse, this snowballing process in 1943-1945, so that ideally at no point are you just steamrolling the AI, and in every battle you have to employ skillful tactics if you want to do well. I think in general I have been successful at this goal, all while maintaining a general historical feeling. For instance, the Soviets often has overwhelming numerical superiority in most 1943-1945 missions, but if you look at unit stats, almost always the German units are individually superior. The only exception is the air units, where the Soviets get an ahistorical extra boost because otherwise they couldn't compete at all.

I have never heard anyone complain that anything after 1942 is too easy. If you feel that is the case on -50% prestige, I would be happy to think about making those years harder.

deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

Post by deducter » Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:43 pm

I estimate I can release a new version of this mod, with changes for GC44 and a 100+ page manual, sometime this week. The manual features easy-to-read unit tables that makes examining and comparing unit stats much more convenient.

I doubt I will be making too many more changes, but I've been thinking about some other features that I might put in future versions. They are:

1. Give combat engineers the best hard attack, while reducing Grenadier hard attack slightly. Right now I feel HW infantry in general are a bit too good, while combat engineers are not as desirable. Historically, combat engineers were the most successful at assaulting and defeating tanks in close terrain. Grenadiers will still have the edge in initiative and they have more ammo.

2. Change the AI's recon units to soft targets. I know the first time I did this, it was not very successful. But I now have more experience and I am reasonably confident that I can make it so that the AI's recon units won't end up as significant barriers. Basically, the AI's recon units will be soft but have lower GD than their German counterparts. They will, however, almost certainly take somewhat longer to destroy. Another reason for this change is consistency, because I don't like the fact that German recon cars are soft, but the AI's are hard.

Edit: One other thing
3. Standardization of the spotting of planes. Right now, the spotting of planes is all over the place. In general, I think fighters should have 2 spotting, and certain fighter bombers should also have 2 spotting, but most tactical and strategic bombers should only have 1 spotting. But this is not a high priority and I probably won't do much until later.

Edit 2: Volksgrenadier
4. One other unit I wanted to add in late 1944 is the Volksgrenadier, not to be confused with the Volkssturm. Volksgrenadier were fairly well-equipped but quickly trained German infantry divisions used to bolstered the front starting in late 1944. Unlike the Volkssturm, many VG divisions gave good account of themselves in combat. In the game, they would have the same attack stats as the Grenadier, but lower IN and defenses. They would also cost about half of the elite grenadiers.

The main problem with adding this unit is that I can't think of an appropriate stock graphic for it. I could just use the German HW infantry graphic, but that might get it confused with the Grenadier 43. And at this time, I don't want to introduce new graphics. I'd be interested in any suggestions.

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

Post by ThvN » Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:56 pm

deducter wrote:One other unit I wanted to add in late 1944 is the Volksgrenadier, not to be confused with the Volkssturm. Volksgrenadier were fairly well-equipped but quickly trained German infantry divisions used to bolstered the front starting in late 1944. Unlike the Volkssturm, many VG divisions gave good account of themselves in combat. In the game, they would have the same attack stats as the Grenadier, but lower IN and defenses. They would also cost about half of the elite grenadiers.

The main problem with adding this unit is that I can't think of an appropriate stock graphic for it. I could just use the German HW infantry graphic, but that might get it confused with the Grenadier 43. And at this time, I don't want to introduce new graphics. I'd be interested in any suggestions.
About the graphics, the Grenadiers have regular, SE, and desert variations, but maybe use one of the colour variations of the regular Wehrmacht infantry icon? Apart from the regular, SE and desert versions, there is the Minor Axis infantry and the Wehrmacht training variation, which are a little bit more brownish and might be distinct enough to prevent confusion.

About the stats for them, I agree with the lower IN, although I'm not sure about just lowering their defense? I would sooner lower their attack values to be honest, and only lower their defenses slightly, apart from the close defense.

As an explanation: They were equipped with many light weapons (rifles, SMG, Sturmgewehr, Panzerfaust) but had less offensive punch because they lacked a lot of the heavier crew-served weapons of the regular units (crew-served means machineguns, mortars, cannon, etc.). The name 'Grenadier' was also a misnomer by this time as of 15 october 1942 all Infanterie units were renamed to Grenadier units. For example, the Infanterie-Regiment 669 was renamed as Grenadier-Regiment 669 per 15 october 1942. Same for Bataillons, etc. This was done as propaganda/morale booster.

Then came along the Volksgrenadiere, which could be any sort of quality; some were made from depleted veteran units, others were very green. A typical unit would have a seasoned core of veterans to which would be added green troops or infantry drawn from Airforce/Navy personnel. Good short-range firepower but less organic support weapons for longer ranges. So they would fare worse on the offensive, but could perform well on the defense, especially in 'close terrain'. Their closest equivalent in the game would be the Soviet SMG infantry I guess.

Anyway, it's a nice idea to put them in the game, I hope you can find a satisfactory icon.

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

Post by 4kEY » Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:21 am

I'm concerned that the Red Air Force might be..one point too-competitive. They're incredibly powerful on the offense and my 4 star - 4 1/2 star Bf109 F and G veteran fighters don't seem to be anything but equal. That's fine but they're getting gang raped out there. Unless I have a fighter (Bf 109 F+G) or AA (Sdkfz. 7/2) unit overstrength to 14 it doesn't have much offense or ability to withstand multiple attacks.

The Bf 110G has less initiative than the most primitive Soviet tac, the Pe-8.

Maybe I'm over-reacting or not looking at it right. I take great care to avoid AA fire.

edit: I'm writing after turn 12 at Kiev 43.

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

Post by ceandersen » Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:36 pm

The second time I'm doing a full campaign, starting at 39 going to the DLC 45. Very exciting!
In this second round, I noticed that unearned more units before starting scenarios. In my first round, I once in a while I earned elite units at the beginning of a scenario. But this time only gain 3 and I'm already at 43.
Why is that?

deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

Post by deducter » Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:21 pm

I'm going to post replies exclusively in the new thread now:

viewtopic.php?f=147&t=40391

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