Grand Campaign Unit Revisions (GC45West, Mar 4 2013)

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deducter
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Grand Campaign Unit Revisions (GC45West, Mar 4 2013)

Post by deducter » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:29 am

March 4, 2013
Updated to v1.11.1, including GC45West!


This mod adjusts the unit stats for the released Panzer Corps Grand Campaigns 1939-1945. My intention is to make the units more balanced, historically accurate, and interesting, so that all units can serve a useful role in the player’s core.

For more information, please consult the detailed manual included in the zip file. It should answer almost any question you may have about the hundreds of changes in this mod.

Download Mirror 1: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.as ... =&#3159181
Download Mirror 2: http://www.gamefront.com/files/23031752 ... 1.11.1.zip

Grand Campaign Unit Revisions revises the equipment and rules files for the Panzer Corps Grand Campaigns (GCs), also known as the DLCs. Almost every single unit in the game has been adjusted. This mod is designed to find a balance between gameplay and historical accuracy in to order to make the GCs a more challenging and realistic simulation of the German perspective of the Second World War.

Major features:

• Almost every unit has been adjusted for historical accuracy and gameplay balance.
• Almost every unit has more distinctive strengths and weaknesses.
• Many more German units are now viable to keep in the player’s core.
• Experienced infantry are significantly better than green infantry.
• Infantry is less fragile in 1943-1945.
• Medium tanks and tank destroyers are much more useful during 1943-1945.
• Advanced weapons, such as the Tiger tank and Me 262, are still very powerful, but now no longer save prestige.
• Certain units, such as the Panzer IV, are reduced in price in 1943 and 1944 to reflect increased German armament production.
• Tougher Red Army, especially during 1943-1945.
• Tougher American and British forces, especially their air units.
• Battles in 1943-1945 are significantly more challenging, but should feel more historically accurate.

Both core choice and battlefield tactics are vital to success for all years of the war. The player is rewarded for using a balanced core of infantry, armor, artillery, and air units. However, the player will have more options within each unit family to build his core. It should not be immediately obvious which unit is the best choice, rather, each unit has its strengths and weaknesses. The pace of the growth of the player’s core strength is also slower.

Because of the lower average core strength, tactical skill is much more important in 1943 and beyond. The successful player will pay close attention to terrain and the type and quality of enemy forces encountered. It is also assumed that he is familiar with all game mechanics, such as mass attack and retreat/surrender rules.

The difficulty the GCs increases moderately in 1939-1942 and significantly in 1943-1945. However, a player who considers himself average will still have ample resources on General difficulty. An expert player can play at a higher difficulty for an appropriate challenge.

Installation:
Download the mod from either source.

Copy the “DLC” folder into the Panzer Corps base directory and override all
files when prompted.

To install the softcore option, copy the contents of the “softcore” folder into the base Panzer
Corps directory and override all files when prompted.

To uninstall this mod, copy the contents of the “uninstall” into the Panzer Corps base directory
and override all files when prompted.

All constructive feedback and comments welcomed!
Last edited by deducter on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:10 am, edited 5 times in total.

deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions (GC44West, Jan 16 2013)

Post by deducter » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:30 am

v1.11.1 (Mar 4 2013)

Balance changes:

SE Panzer IIIM 1943 obsolete date now after Kursk
Fw 190 ground attack GD, AD, AA, spotting -1
Yak-3 and Yak-9U AA 18 to 19
Most German infantry ammo -1 (back to v1.10.1 values)
Armored Sideskirts CD bonus -1 to compensate for lower HA of HW infantry (exceptions are the Brummbär and Panzer IIIN)
12.8 cm Flak price signifcantly increased; range = 4 is very powerful
M16 MGMC AA 12 to 13
Pioniere price slightly decreased
Panther G AA -1 to 0
Panther A fuel 32 to 26
JagdPanther AD 13 to 12
Panzer IIIN CD -2 in all years
French 25 mm SA 34 IN 1 to 2, HA 4 to 6, ammo 10 to 7
French 47 mm SA 37 HA 7 to 10, ammo 8 to 5
Belgian AT guns now entirely Bofors 37 mm
Towed 3.7 cm Flak SA -2 to -4
GD of all soft German recon units -1 in 1943-1945
Sd.Kfz. 234/1 and Sd.Kfz. 234/2 price increased
Do 217E price slightly increased
StuH 42 price slightly decreased
Brummbär ammo -1
Panzerwerfer 42 price decreased
German wonder weapons tweaks

Fixes:
ISU-122 (ART) correctly has range = 1
Hs129B-2 correctly purchaseable in 1943
Numerous manual corrections

To do:
Add the wonder weapons (Go 229, Ar 234, Amerika Bomber) to the manual
Last edited by deducter on Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:16 pm, edited 11 times in total.

scypion
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions (GC44West, Jan 16 2013)

Post by scypion » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:09 pm

Deducter strike again nice :) I will check it thank you

nvett
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions (GC44West, Jan 16 2013)

Post by nvett » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:41 pm

It's like coming home from holiday and finding an unwrapped Xmas present. I read through the manual last night, a very impressive well researched product, the unit comparison is especially invaluable. I also appreciate every effort you have made to keep the players core composition a historical as possible even if it includes tweaking certain elements to maintain game-play balance. Look forward to starting in 1939 again, hopefully this time I will have a better time of maintaining my prestige levels on Rommel level. Thank you for your efforts deducter!

Mordan
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions (GC44West, Jan 16 2013)

Post by Mordan » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:26 pm

Wow just wow. Huge work. Some players are that dedicated.

I haven't read the manual yet but can you use the mod to play MP games?

PS: I have never used MODs before.

deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions (GC44West, Jan 16 2013)

Post by deducter » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:41 pm

Mordan wrote:Wow just wow. Huge work. Some players are that dedicated.

I haven't read the manual yet but can you use the mod to play MP games?

PS: I have never used MODs before.
Unfortunately no, this completely incompatible with MP. For instance, in 80% of cases I didn't even tweak the prices of Allied/Soviet units.

Personally, I think the stock eqp file is quite good for MP. Perhaps some day in the future I might do a MP-specific eqp file.

deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions (GC44West, Jan 16 2013)

Post by deducter » Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:24 pm

4kEY wrote:I'm concerned that the Red Air Force might be..one point too-competitive. They're incredibly powerful on the offense and my 4 star - 4 1/2 star Bf109 F and G veteran fighters don't seem to be anything but equal. That's fine but they're getting gang raped out there. Unless I have a fighter (Bf 109 F+G) or AA (Sdkfz. 7/2) unit overstrength to 14 it doesn't have much offense or ability to withstand multiple attacks.

The Bf 110G has less initiative than the most primitive Soviet tac, the Pe-8.

Maybe I'm over-reacting or not looking at it right. I take great care to avoid AA fire.

edit: I'm writing after turn 12 at Kiev 43.
I lowered the IN of the Yak-3 and Yak-9U by 1 in response to your comment.

4-star Bf 109G should be able to defeat most of the Soviet fighters easily, especially one with IN and/or attack heroes. The only trouble you might run into is the Yak-3, La-7, and Yak-9U, and the Soviets don't field many models of those.

I think the balance of the air units is fine. I have a hard time between making it too easy and too hard. I would rather err slightly on the harder side, because I personally did most of 1943-1944 with minimal air losses, and it wasn't until late 1945 that I had difficulty. If you use your AA judiciously, along with good mass attack tactics, the Soviet air force is not that tough to defeat. Plus, don't you have something like 20000-30000 prestige? If you are really worried about the air war, just overstrength all of your fighters/AA, and the Soviets will be easy enough to defeat.
ceandersen wrote:The second time I'm doing a full campaign, starting at 39 going to the DLC 45. Very exciting!
In this second round, I noticed that unearned more units before starting scenarios. In my first round, I once in a while I earned elite units at the beginning of a scenario. But this time only gain 3 and I'm already at 43.
Why is that?
Elite units have a random 1/3 chance of being rewarded. So, it's just bad luck that you only have 3 at the start of 1943. There is no way to mod the chance of being rewarded an elite unit.

orlinos
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions (GC44West, Jan 16 2013)

Post by orlinos » Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:09 pm

I spotted a tiny mistake - in 1941, Panzer IIF belongs to recon class, while Panzer IIC is still a tank. They share the PzII family, but no upgrade is possible. It only happens in 1941, I think, 1942 is unaffected.

I left my previous forces at the end of 1944 and haven't yet started 1945 - constant defensive war was a bit too much and I had to rest for a while. In the meantim, I restarted again, this time I will take the West path.

I have to say, that Eastern front experiences changed the way I play the earlier DLCs. I take more risks, sometimes leaving infantry with no support, when I only expect enemy armor to appear. Also, I use much less overstrength - mostly on Stukas, towed artillery, Panzerjäger and some infantry. And it all still works - I finally score much more DV's in Russia (I used to always be 1-2 turns too slow). Can't wait to finally play Western DLC - as soon as I finish 1941.
Piotr 'Orlinos' Kozlowski

deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions (GC44West, Jan 16 2013)

Post by deducter » Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:51 pm

I'm going to use the second post in this thread to post a list of things to do, both corrections and ideas

ceandersen
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions (GC44West, Jan 16 2013)

Post by ceandersen » Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:13 pm

deducter wrote: Elite units have a random 1/3 chance of being rewarded. So, it's just bad luck that you only have 3 at the start of 1943. There is no way to mod the chance of being rewarded an elite unit.
Thanks deducter, I thought it could be because no lost units in battle. Anyway, do not think bad luck, as playing PC is always a good experience! Maybe my luck improves when we have availiable tiger or panthers? That would be good luck!

chemkid
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions (GC44West, Jan 16 2013)

Post by chemkid » Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:33 pm

@deducter - just finished reading your latest manual to your unit revisions. gotta say GREAT STUFF!!
thanks a lot for that 'complete' information and knowledge-base!!

cheers and keep it up!!!
chem!

deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions (GC44West, Jan 16 2013)

Post by deducter » Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:09 pm

It has been brought to my attention that the Panzer II is not sufficiently attractive for use in the early war. Someone pointed out to me that its 20 mm autocannon is not very effective against tanks, but works well against many soft targets. However, I am wary of making any quick changes, because if I simply upped the SA of the Panzer II (and all recon units equipped with the same gun), this would make the Panzer I completely useless. Nevertheless, I agree that the Panzer II could use a buff.

My ideas:
Ideas:
1. A simple buff to SA, from 2 to 4. This would make the Panzer II much more effective against soft targets, without being overpowered. HA would have to go down, from 4 to 3. A bigger buff to SA, from 2 to 5, might also work, but it would make this tank better than the P38(t).
However, in the case of a buff such as this, I would have to reduce the Panzer II move back down to 5, and probably increase price to around 200. This unit would be much, much better than the Panzer I. The only reason to get the Panzer I is because it is cheap.
2. Keep Panzer II's combat stats, but add the reconmove flag to distinguish it from all other German tanks of the period. This has the advantage of making the Panzer II unique, and to give an appropriate preview for its change to the recon class in 1942. It would still have spotting = 2. In this case, I would also almost certainly have to reduce its move back down to 5 for 1939-1941.
3. Keep the current system, but reintroduce the family upgrade to the Panzer II Flamm in 1941. This upgrade could only be made in that year, since in 1942 all Panzer IIs are changed to the recon class.

The combat power several German recon units would also be improved. The net result is that the Germans would have an even easier time against the mostly soft targets of 1939-1940.

So ultimately, what should I do? Up the SA? If so, keep or reduce the movement? Add reconmove flag in 1939-1941? Some combination of all these changes?

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions (GC44West, Jan 16 2013)

Post by Delta66 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:03 pm

Both options 1 and 2 seem attractive to me.

I think the 6 Movement points are necessary to benefit from thereconmove tag.
In 1939-40 we could argue that giving it recon abilities is a bit too much. and would reduce the attractiveness of the early recon armored cars.

SA 4 and HA 3 seem just fine, maybe increasing the price a little

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions (GC44West, Jan 16 2013)

Post by ThvN » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:38 am

About the Panzer2, that's a difficult call. I've checked the stats in your manual (nice piece of work, BTW), and did some over-analyzing, to get some numbers to compare. Right now the soft attack of the Panzer1 is 3, while the early Panzers with 37mm cannon have 4. So, roughly:

- two turret MG's: SA=3
- turret MG + 20mm autocannon: SA=2
- turret MG + 37mm + hull MG: SA=4

The MG's are difficult to compare in firepower, esp. on this coarse scale, but note that the Panzer1 used MG's with a low rate of fire (600 rpm), and the Panzer2 and Panzer3 the more modern and faster firing MG34. The 20mm autocannon on the Panzer2 is quoted having a practical rate of fire of 120-180 rpm (cyclic was higher, but this accounts for aiming, reloading and cooling pauses). The 37mm on early Panzer3 is quoted as 15-18 rpm, with sustained rate of 13 rpm in some sources.

37mm could fire HE but those shells were unimpressive, of course. The 20mm was mostly issued AP ammo but used the same ammo as the 20mm FlaK guns, so HE would be relatively easy to obtain (and was often swapped with the AP as the FlaK batteries were issued mostly HE). The 20mm HE was also unimpressive but the high rate of fire would of course compensate somewhat (and quickly consume the ammo). I would rate the Panzer2 as having a higher soft attack than the Panzer1, at least it should be equal, so SA=3 would be a nice value, maybe 4. Okay, that was the number-bit. Now some thoughts about the Panzer2:

The Panzer2 was simply not a combat tank, even in Poland their performance was marginal. They were just as fast as the bigger Panzer3 (and had the same power-to-weight ratio) so their only mobility advantage would be their smaller size and lower weight (important for bridge crossings).

So, move=5, SA=3 (maybe 4?), sounds fairly reasonable. I'm not completely sure about the 'reconmove', although it would reflect that they were used more and more in the recon role. But so was the Panzer1.

But the biggest problem is the Panzer38(t), I think. While the Panzer38(t) is more expensive (75Pr), it is still a noticable improvement (apart from the GD). I think that the Panzer38(t) is relatively cheap in Poland, as in reality they were still quite rare in 1939.

When Germany annexed Czechoslovakia in march 1939 the production was just starting, and 57 were available when Germany attacked Poland. In may 1940 they had 238 (sources for both: Thomas L. Jentz: Die deutsche Panzertruppe 1933–1942) . Production numbers during the years: http://www.feldgrau.com/afvstats.html. Both the Panzer2 and Panzer38(t) lack a worthwile upgrade path in the early years, and the limited core slots favour quality over quantity. And the Panzer1 will become even less attractive if you buff the Panzer2 too much. Difficult, indeed.

So, as an idea, maybe make the Panzer38(t) a bit more expensive for GC '39? In order to increase the attractiveness of the cheaper offerings, and emphasize their scarcity. The only 'medium' tank available in numbers in those early days was the Panzer35(t), which was in the original Panzer General (and in my mod as well), but sadly unavailable here.

deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions (GC44West, Jan 16 2013)

Post by deducter » Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:56 am

ThvN wrote: But the biggest problem is the Panzer38(t), I think. While the Panzer38(t) is more expensive (75Pr), it is still a noticable improvement (apart from the GD). I think that the Panzer38(t) is relatively cheap in Poland, as in reality they were still quite rare in 1939.
Exactly, this is why balancing things is so tricky. On the surface, all I have to do is up the SA of the Panzer II. But on a second level, I have to adjust other stats for the Panzer II also. And on a third level, I have to take into account the other tanks, which I may have to change too. And all the while, I have to keep in mind historical context.

The Panzer II issue is indeed quite complicated. If I change the Panzer II, I'll have to reexamine all the early war tanks. There won't be anything too drastic, but basically my thoughts are currently these:

1. Buff SA of Panzer II, increase cost, reduce some other stats to compensate
2. Panzer IIIF may need SA 4 to 5. I forgot only the later models had better SA, but even the Panzer IIIF should have slightly better SA.
3. Increase costs slightly of other early war tanks (???)

I think the P38(t) is fine as is, because if I change the Panzer II, the P38(t) will be unique because it has 6 move, amazing fuel/ammo, and decent attack stats. Plus the future upgrade to the Marder III and eventually Hetzer.

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions (GC44West, Jan 16 2013)

Post by nvett » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:49 am

Interesting comments

Unfortunately whilst i can't add anything further to the technical discussion I have found on my latest play-through, by mid 1940 I have left the PzII "at home" more and more in favour of other units, including the PzI. At present I feel like I have only bought one for historical flavour and to upgrade to the nifty Marder, which feels a long way ahead.

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions (GC44West, Jan 16 2013)

Post by orlinos » Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:07 pm

I like the little Panzer II as it is. I tend to use it extensively at least up to mid-1941.

Obviously, just like Panzer I it’s a cheap “crap” tank – but it’s what makes it useful. Enemy tanks tend to attack it, so it acts as a lure. Move of 6 make it very agile – so it can put some damage into artillery or suppressed AA. If I leave it behind enemy lines in a vulnerable position for a turn – it will sustain heavy damage from light tanks and heavy infantry, but it’s very cheap to elite reinforce, unlike the III and IV series – which matters in the early scenarios.

I find it better on defense than offense – it’s great at plugging holes or getting sacrificed and elite-reinforced. If I put it behind heavy artillery, it will stand ground well. With 13 strength and Stug III put behind it – it was sometimes able to withstand T-34 attacks with only some damage.
Piotr 'Orlinos' Kozlowski

Delta66
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions (GC44West, Jan 16 2013)

Post by Delta66 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:48 pm

Concerning the French AT gun 47mm SA modèle 37:

With its specific tungsten core APCR round its penetration was roughly equivalent to the German 50mm Pak 38 standard AP round (not the PzGr40 50 mm APCR),and significantly better than the Czech 47mm gun of the PzJgr 1.

However the gun was quite rare in front line unit, and often issued to the divisional artillery (976 produced, but less actually issued). and in practice only 4 or 6 were issued to each division, and the de facto standard AT gun was still the 25mm SA modèle 34 (around 6000 produced from various version).
They also used a few Canon de 75 Anti Char modèle 97/35 which were conversion from the popular "French 75" modèle 1897 artillery gun.

As there's too much AT 47 mle 37 in the scenarios, I suggest to keep its values as they are considering the unit are actually made of a mix of 25 mm and 47 mm AT guns. Which has the advantage of simplicity.

I also find this page on german guns penetration values, maybe it could be helpful:
http://www.panzerworld.net/armourpenetration.html

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions (GC44West, Jan 16 2013)

Post by scypion » Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:16 am

I think that Pz II is good as it is now. You can not do it super-tank, because, in fact, already in 1939 this tank was obsolete. In attack on Poland was used 1224 tanks of this type, on France 955 and on Russia 746, in 1945 year Wehrmacht had only 145 tanks of this type. Pz II was armed with a 20mm cannon and 1 mg than didn't have much power against soft targets, 20mm round didn't have blast radius only impact power. As for the Pz III E was the only one armed with 3 mg, next models have only 2 mg so Pz III E should have more firepower against soft targets.

Deducter when would you like to continue your video AAR?? I finished all DLC to 1943 year and waiting to start 1944 year but I take large losses in Prohorovka scenario and had only minor victory :/ I waiting for your show how to play this scenario.

Delta66
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions (GC44West, Jan 16 2013)

Post by Delta66 » Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:53 pm

I agree with you Scypion, Pz I and PzII were obsolete technically and for performances.
However I understand that the purpose of the mod is to encourage players to use units that were commonly used in the various years of WWII, and not to have corps only made of the "high tech", high performances units. And Pz I and Pz II were widely used in 1939 and 1940.

Edit: Currently in early 1941 in Rommel mode
Last edited by Delta66 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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