Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.0

A forum to discuss custom scenarios, campaigns and modding in general.

Moderators: Slitherine Core, Panzer Corps Moderators, Panzer Corps Design

PeteMitchell_2
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.0

Post by PeteMitchell_2 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:02 pm

jeffoot77 wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:55 am
spain and turkey should obviously be allied with germans ( with no units in the countries. )
In summary, I think Franco didn't feel ready/wasn't too keen to join the Axis:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_during_World_War_II

Turkey wasn't too ready either, plus after their WW1 experience, they had prefered to somehow stick with the Brits (in very simple terms):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_ ... rld_War_II
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... 80%931945)

jeffoot77
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.0

Post by jeffoot77 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:22 am

yes but no choice, there is no possibilities to make neutral countries in this game . It is not important if there are no units in these countries. To make them possible to invade could give the player more gameplay posibilities. And north africa/ south france should be possible to invade too in 41. Why so little liberty for the player?

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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.0

Post by George_Parr » Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:56 am

Why would there be?
The mod follows Barbarossa and the events that followed. Not everything needs to be open.

At the point in time at which the mod starts, Vichy France had already been established and things worked pretty well for Germany. Why would they even think about taking over southern France, when a neutral France was much more in their favour?
There was no point in going after Spain either. Not only would it have opened another front, but it also would have risked the raw-materials that Germany got out of Spain. For the Allies, it simply wasn't worth it either. They didn't have the means to succeed in France, not with Germany still at full strength. And going after Spain would have meant the end for Gibraltar and a further disadvantage in the Mediterranean. Sometimes letting nations be is advantageous to both sides in a war.

This mod was obviously set up with a specific interest in mind. Why spend a ton of effort to allow obscure options just in case someone would try to use the mod for the opposite of what it was intended for? Even if you could find a way to make it work without running into the obvious problems, the effort needed is unlikely to be worth it. Doesn't mean one can't try to include more options it it is easily doable and doesn't cause unwanted consequences, but that isn't always the case.

Also, you can never buy ships of any kind in Panzer Corps in general. Why would you expect the mod to suddenly allow it?


I have to say, I never really bothered with the siege of Leningrad though. You sit way too close to the enemy, who can happily fire on you with all his long-range weapons (artillery, fortress, battleship). It would take quite the effort to negate that advantage, which would bind resources that are much more useful in attempting to take Moscow.

jeffoot77
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.0

Post by jeffoot77 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:29 pm

"the effort needed is unlikely to be worth it"

--> u just have not to block theses countries , it takes 5 minutes to do it.

"Also, you can never buy ships of any kind in Panzer Corps in general. Why would you expect the mod to suddenly allow it?"

--> i don't understand why you are speaking of the vanilla game . A mod is made to change the original game! In 1941, Hitler could'nt build destroyers? historically, it is nonsense.

The question here is to let (or not) the player give more liberty to play. The more options the players have, the more fun the players will have.
The mod is great but finally, the player has no choice, always the same lanes : england or russia then no more choice... : he can't send paratroops beyond ennemy lines in england or in russia, (or even in greenland! ) , he can't attack by another way ( like by turkey or swis or south france ) , he can't take gilbratar, he can't send all the ships in black sea (red line) ; he can't build destroyers,..

Why the player in 41 cant' be Hitler and decide what he wants to do ?? The mod remains very fun to play but i think the replaybility of the mod is limited.

PeteMitchell_2
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.0

Post by PeteMitchell_2 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:55 pm

George_Parr wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:56 am
Also, you can never buy ships of any kind in Panzer Corps in general. Why would you expect the mod to suddenly allow it?
I think I recall a mod where you can buy ships... but it took/still takes a while to build a ship so it might need to come at the expense of something else, i.e. given the required resources...

cw58
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.0

Post by cw58 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:25 pm

jeffoot77 wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:29 pm
"the effort needed is unlikely to be worth it"

--> u just have not to block theses countries , it takes 5 minutes to do it.

"Also, you can never buy ships of any kind in Panzer Corps in general. Why would you expect the mod to suddenly allow it?"

--> i don't understand why you are speaking of the vanilla game . A mod is made to change the original game! In 1941, Hitler could'nt build destroyers? historically, it is nonsense.

The question here is to let (or not) the player give more liberty to play. The more options the players have, the more fun the players will have.
The mod is great but finally, the player has no choice, always the same lanes : england or russia then no more choice... : he can't send paratroops beyond ennemy lines in england or in russia, (or even in greenland! ) , he can't attack by another way ( like by turkey or swis or south france ) , he can't take gilbratar, he can't send all the ships in black sea (red line) ; he can't build destroyers,..

Why the player in 41 cant' be Hitler and decide what he wants to do ?? The mod remains very fun to play but i think the replaybility of the mod is limited.
Considering your comments and suggestions, I think I would recommend taking this mod and reshaping it in the way you would like. As you said yourself, it would take 5 minutes to unblock the neutral countries. You can buy more core units if that's what you want by entering a cheat code which would take less than a minute. You can mod the purchase screen so you can buy any unit (even ships!) in the game. You can mod the eq file so you can buy any troops you want whenever you want (more paratroops!).

McGuba has spent many hours developing this mod and has the right to create it the way he wants. I'm sure he appreciates all feedback and suggestions, but at the end of the day, he gets to decide what his mod will be.

But the great thing about Panzer Corps is that it's so easy to mod. And that means if you feel there are shortcomings in the mod, you can adjust it to suit your play-style; put in the mod the things you would like to see. I encourage you to mod your ideas into BE so that it's more fun for you to play. And enjoy! Modding is half the fun! :D

McGuba
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.0

Post by McGuba » Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:55 pm

"the effort needed is unlikely to be worth it"

--> u just have not to block theses countries , it takes 5 minutes to do it.
It is true that it would be fairly easy to make these countries accessible by removing the neutral hexes but that would create an unhistorical situation. I do not think that they should be made empty and accept the Axis troops and air units without resistance as historically they clearly opposed an alliance with Germany or the Allies, hence they remained neutral. Which means most likely they would have opposed any nation that violated their neutrality. As it happened with the Netherlands, Belgium or Norway, to name a few.


"Also, you can never buy ships of any kind in Panzer Corps in general. Why would you expect the mod to suddenly allow it?"

--> i don't understand why you are speaking of the vanilla game . A mod is made to change the original game! In 1941, Hitler could'nt build destroyers? historically, it is nonsense.
Historically only a few German destroyers were commissioned after 1941. From mid 1941 German ship building almost exclusively focused on U-boats and to a smaller extent on some other smaller vessels like S-boats. To represent the few new destroyer (and torpedo boat) units one (or potentionally another) destroyer unit appears in the map in 1943. And in this mod a destroyer unit represents a flotilla of 8 actual destroyers (or torpedo boats, corvettes, frigates and similar escort vessels). So these are basically covered.

Also, as written above, building a destroyer took some time. For example in case of the German "Type 1936B" destroyers their construction tipically took one year and then at least another before they were commissioned (after being fully equipped, tested, trained, etc.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_1936B_destroyer

And obviously, the construction of larger ships took even longer. In the case of battleships around three years. Therefore, in the time frame of this mod it would be unrealistic to be able to purchase new naval units in just one turn, which takes two weeks.


he can't send paratroops beyond ennemy lines in england or in russia, (or even in greenland! )
The Ju 52 had a maximum range of about 1000 km or 600 miles. So there was no realistic chance of an airborne invasion of Iceland (as it lies about 1500 km from Norway), or a deep penetration behind enemy lines in Russia, even if there were more paratrooper units (and also Ju 52 planes) available. Unfortunately, PzC does not simulate it very well as air transports use no fuel and have unlimited range and I was unable to fix it as it is hard coded. But the fact that there is only one paratrooper unit available makes it fairly historical as it significantly limits their operational usefullness as it was indeed the case.

Additionally, having more paratroopers would make the mod much easier as the player would be able to paradrop several units behind the back of the enemy and the AI would be unable to realise this threat and to deal with it. The game also does not have a very good supply system and would allow a large number of units being dropped far behind the enemy lines and operate isolated with no problem when realistically they would not survive for long without sufficient supply lines.

he can't attack by another way ( like by turkey or swis or south france )
Although these neutral countries have to be avoided, currently there are many alternative history options available, including the naval invasion of England, Northern Ireland, Iceland, Malta, the Near East or crossing the Black Sea to reach the Caucasus. And none of these happened historically. Even the invasion of England provides several alternative options and routes which can be tested.

he can't take gilbratar
Actually it is possible to capture Gibraltar, at least theoretically, from the sea. If I remember well a few players did so before. It is also possible to block the strait with naval units, especially submarines, which may be more cost effective.
ImageImage
slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=147&t=47985
slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=147&t=36969

jeffoot77
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.0

Post by jeffoot77 » Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:54 pm

thanks McGuba for the explanations, very interesting . I didn"t know about the paratroopers problem : "with IA would be unable to realise this threat and to deal with it" .

first I never wanted to impose anything on your mod. besides, as I said, I already used the cheat codes to have this freedom of action. I give just a few ideas. i just want the mod more "free" because the player is very limited in his choices. As you said, apart from taking Malta from England and landing in the Caucasus, there are no other possibilities of alternative history options available for the player. The player can defeat the operation torch but only in Tunisia after allies have disembarked, impossible to build an Atlantic wall in North Africa for example or send boats because the lack of available african ports . The player can take Malta but only by bombing the island whereas a paratrooper would be theoretically possible to . The player can take Gibraltar but only by the sea... the list is long ..

For the destroyer ,is'nt it possible to get a destroyer after one year when purchased?

Uhu
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.0

Post by Uhu » Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:28 pm

Did you already finished BE at least one time? I do not feel it that way...
Let's start first the game, beat it. Make a DV, than if you need challenge and diversity, try to beat it with Rommel difficulty, when you made than try to make a DV under 61 turns. If you want still new chaellenges, try the pre-set saves. And finally try the multiplayer version.
I play this mod since about 8 years and it gives me still new challenges and fun with the existing options. (Now with multi.)

BE is not a casual game, it tries to simulate history as far as it is possible. Also the PzC engine has it's limitations, it is not HOI, or other, diplomatic-related ww2 game.

jeffoot77 wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:29 pm
"the effort needed is unlikely to be worth it"

--> u just have not to block theses countries , it takes 5 minutes to do it.

"Also, you can never buy ships of any kind in Panzer Corps in general. Why would you expect the mod to suddenly allow it?"

--> i don't understand why you are speaking of the vanilla game . A mod is made to change the original game! In 1941, Hitler could'nt build destroyers? historically, it is nonsense.

The question here is to let (or not) the player give more liberty to play. The more options the players have, the more fun the players will have.
The mod is great but finally, the player has no choice, always the same lanes : england or russia then no more choice... : he can't send paratroops beyond ennemy lines in england or in russia, (or even in greenland! ) , he can't attack by another way ( like by turkey or swis or south france ) , he can't take gilbratar, he can't send all the ships in black sea (red line) ; he can't build destroyers,..

Why the player in 41 cant' be Hitler and decide what he wants to do ?? The mod remains very fun to play but i think the replaybility of the mod is limited.
Image
Image

Uhu
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.0

Post by Uhu » Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:56 pm

On the other hand, there is a possibility to buy extra units (for example fighters) at turn 2-3. You just have to figure it out, how and pay the price for it (not just prestige)! ;)
Image
Image

jeffoot77
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.0

Post by jeffoot77 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:50 pm

"Did you already finished BE at least one time? I do not feel it that way."

--> no i must admit that i have never finished it yet because it is too dificult , because the mod doesn't give the opportunity to give me some alternatives to win. When i decided a strategy, i just can't apply it. (like attacking by turkey or spain for gibraltar)


" it tries to simulate history as far as it is possible"

--> so if hitler has decided to invade turkey or spain, isn't it a possible history simulation ?
As i already said, the mod has only to be more awesome if it offers more possibilities. What it costs to let the player decide what he wants? if the player can't choose where he want to attack, what is the purpose of he mod? just to follow history? and you are in contradiction: you said it simulates history but for ewample, when you defeat torch operation or when you took Moscow / malta , are you simulating history ?

George_Parr
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.0

Post by George_Parr » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:36 pm

Uhu wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:56 pm
On the other hand, there is a possibility to buy extra units (for example fighters) at turn 2-3. You just have to figure it out, how and pay the price for it (not just prestige)! ;)
There is?
I never knew about that, interesting :shock:
jeffoot77 wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:50 pm
" it tries to simulate history as far as it is possible"

--> so if hitler has decided to invade turkey or spain, isn't it a possible history simulation ?
As i already said, the mod has only to be more awesome if it offers more possibilities. What it costs to let the player decide what he wants? if the player can't choose where he want to attack, what is the purpose of he mod? just to follow history? and you are in contradiction: you said it simulates history but for ewample, when you defeat torch operation or when you took Moscow / malta , are you simulating history ?
But he didn't, so it isn't a possibility.

There is no contradiction at all. The mod doesn't exist to copy every single detail that happened in the war, it is about following the historical strategic offensives and see if you can change the outcome of said strategies. What would happen if Germany had succeeded in taking one of the big cities early on? Can you beat back the Soviet offensive against your strategic goal to take Stalingrad and the Caucasus? Can you regain the initiave after the Allies truly ramp things up and force you on the defensive? Can you hold out and keep Germany from collapsing? Can you keep Italy in the war and maybe even take Africa?
The difference between taking Moscow or attacking Malta on one side, and invading Spain or Turkey on the other, is that Germany was actually at war with the Soviet Union and Great Britian and therefore had a "realistic" chance of achieving these goals or at the very least would try to achieve them, while it clearly wasn't at war with Spain or Turkey. There is a significant difference between being more (or less) successful in an actual battle, and fighting a battle that didn't really exist in the first place.

And as has been mentioned before, there are significant gameplay issues with what you want. Opening up Spain or Turkey or any other neutral nation means that they can be used by either side for things that are completely unrealistic. Like resupplying from their airfields or harbours, or crossing their territory. There simply isn't a real possibility to keep an area open for the player to move into while also keeping it barred from being used by any units when the player doesn't opt to attack said nation.
Not to mention that the AI isn't build to deal with situations that are completely different. Suddenly you would need to add more units and unhistoric plans to deal with possible scenarios the player might choose to go with. After all, without counter-measures that activate once you deviate from the plan, the AI is at a huge disadvantage that it doesn't even know about. The mod already uses quite a few of the game's capabilities to the maximum it can handle, like the zones that you can put on the map to trigger things. Having more units that would account for any unhistoric war you create would require taking zones from what is currently going on, because the game doesn't allow to use more than there are already in use. This means you would have to weaken the historic parts of the mod just so the odd player here and there could choose to do something that isn't really in line with what the mod is aiming for.

There is only so much the mod can account for, and it seems obvious that dealing with something that is in line with the idea of the mod is a whole lot more useful than reducing those things to prop up alternative ideas that don't really fit to the rest of the mod.

jeffoot77
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.0

Post by jeffoot77 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:59 am

"There is?I never knew about that, interesting "

--> i think it is by disbanding a lot of units .

"it is about following the historical strategic offensives "

--> So the player has no really strategy choices. .... why hitler couldn't build a fortification wall in north africa? or why player can't reinforce north africa harbors? player can't even send troops over there!

glaude1955
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.0

Post by glaude1955 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:11 am

jeffoot77 wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:59 am

--> So the player has no really strategy choices. .... why hitler couldn't build a fortification wall in north africa?
He was already struggling to consolidate his position in Europe. In addition, he could not invade the Vichy France ...
or why player can't reinforce north africa harbors? player can't even send troops over there!
To send some, you have to own some!

PeteMitchell_2
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.0

Post by PeteMitchell_2 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:56 pm

George_Parr wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:36 pm
invading Spain or Turkey on the other, is that Germany was actually at war with the Soviet Union and Great Britian and therefore had a "realistic" chance of achieving these goals or at the very least would try to achieve them, while it clearly wasn't at war with Spain or Turkey.
Maybe compare here, just for the completeness of the discussion:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Isabella (plan to invade Iberian Peninsula)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_dur ... I#Military
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gertrude_(code_name) (plan to invade Turkey)
https://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5551

uzbek2012
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.0

Post by uzbek2012 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:56 pm

Why does the author not borrow some chips and skills from this mod)? For example shooting from a truck if the column was attacked !
UPDATE: Legacy of Versailles - "REDUX" v1.1
http://streitmacht.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... &start=315
viewtopic.php?f=147&t=86786

P.s. :arrow: http://union.4bb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=971&p=22#p110711

jeffoot77
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.0

Post by jeffoot77 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:50 am

"He was already struggling to consolidate his position in Europe. In addition, he could not invade the Vichy France ..."

--> why you always are talking of the historical hitler?
In this mod, i would like to be the Hitler i want to be !

PeteMitchell_2
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.0

Post by PeteMitchell_2 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:09 pm

McGuba wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:51 am
Battlefield: Europe v2.0
A strategic mod on tactical level (or a tactical mod on strategic level, lol)

In June 1941, right after the green light to Operation Barbarossa is given, a group of high ranking German officers realize that the leader of their nation has serious mental problems and his way of conduct will only lead to the complete destruction of Germany. So they take the necessary steps to get rid of him and his closest followers and on the same day you are given full control of the Axis armies in Europe and North Africa. What would you do differently?
Maybe compare the very first sentence of McGuba's intro, as said by many others already, it's not your mod, it's his mod...
jeffoot77 wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:50 am
In this mod, i would like to be the Hitler i want to be !
...and by the way, I would also suggest you don't state that you would like to be "Hitler" on this forum. You may run the risk of being banned... and in case you may wonder why I say this now, then I would suggest you just take any history book...

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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.0

Post by jeffoot77 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:19 pm

lol why you try to change of subject? you know that i m not english and that i don't use the words i would like to use to make me inderstand. And you know that i just want to give my feed back on the mod. If you don't understand that, you will never get feed back on your mods . I have already myself created mods and i never threaten the players who give feed back ! Why i have"nt the right to give my opinion? you want to ban me just because i would like to have the same choices that Hitler got in 41? is it a joke ?

"What would you do differently?"
--> the mod said himself that we are not forced to follow the choices that Hitler made ! why are you always denying this?

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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.0

Post by PeteMitchell_2 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:35 pm

jeffoot77 wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:19 pm
lol why you try to change of subject? you know that i m not english and that i don't use the words i would like to use to make me inderstand. And you know that i just want to give my feed back on the mod. If you don't understand that, you will never get feed back on your mods . I have already myself created mods and i never threaten the players who give feed back ! Why i have"nt the right to give my opinion? you want to ban me just because i would like to have the same choices that Hitler got in 41? is it a joke ?

"What would you do differently?"
--> the mod said himself that we are not forced to follow the choices that Hitler made ! why are you always denying this?
No hard feelings, no threat... I just observed that Slitherine (forum/team) doesn't really tolerate much Nazi/Hitler references (for right reasons)... that's all...
Please feel free to share your feedback...

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