GC Unit Revisions v12 beta2 (June 15, 2014)

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deducter
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Re: GC Unit Revisions v12 beta2 (June 15, 2014)

Post by deducter » Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:11 pm

Certain components I am 100% sure about, like capping combat dice rolls to 10, but the fighter change is something that is the most experimental.

This component is geared mostly towards 1943+ when the AI gets to flood the battlefield with planes. The idea is that you are the player should no longer feel compelled to field at least 5-6 fighters to try to contest the air. Rather, you can field some AA guns, fewer fighters, and selectively target AI bombers while ignoring their fighters if you so choose. If you want to go an air heavy strategy, that's also fine. But if you want to go a ground-based strategy, that should not make it so you have to constantly worry about fighters getting lucky and knocking 3 points off your Tigers or artillery or whatnot.

I have seen plenty of AI bombing attempts, and even attempts by the AI to attack my planes with its fighters, so the AI isn't totally incapable of handling air units.

I'm not worried about the AI in the early war years. Chalk it up to ineffective Allied/Soviet air power, which is accurate anyway. Once revisions are done for 43, let's see how the AI handles it. If it's a huge problem, then I will revert back to the old system.

More observations of how the AI handles its air units is great and the more feedback I get the better.

Btw 8.8 cm FlaK in AT mode has -7 AA, so it would shoot back at the fighter; the AI would've not taken the attack.

deducter
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Re: GC Unit Revisions v12 beta2 (June 15, 2014)

Post by deducter » Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:05 pm

I'm going to stream some PzC now. Watch me as I playtest my mod.

http://www.twitch.tv/deducter

Waffenamt
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Re: GC Unit Revisions v12 beta2 (June 15, 2014)

Post by Waffenamt » Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:33 pm

Hi,

Your response about the AI aircraft makes perfect sense, and now I understand why that attack on the 88 unit in AT mode happened the way it did. The same would have probably still happened with the previous mod, so that was more an exception than the rule. I should have known you wouldn't let something so obvious slip by 8)

Regards

caca
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Re: GC Unit Revisions v12 beta2 (June 15, 2014)

Post by caca » Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:09 pm

Firstly thank you, deductor for his mod.

My friends and I decided to make a tournament GC39 with this mod .
We invite all wishing join us until July 18.
It is true there write in Russian, but if you are together with the English text will make his Russian google translation, I think we understand each other.
If someone joins us, then I translate into English the tournament rules.

deducter
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Re: GC Unit Revisions v12 beta2 (June 15, 2014)

Post by deducter » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:05 pm

caca wrote:Firstly thank you, deductor for his mod.

My friends and I decided to make a tournament GC39 with this mod .
We invite all wishing join us until July 18.
It is true there write in Russian, but if you are together with the English text will make his Russian google translation, I think we understand each other.
If someone joins us, then I translate into English the tournament rules.
I always happy to see that this mod is getting great use. I hope this becomes successful enough for you to try out GC40+. I find GC41/42 to be quite interesting; Russia even in 1941 and 1942 is challenging.

Work on this mod has paused recently due to me playing a certain XCOM mod a lot lately. But rest assured, I have not forgotten about PzC.

If any posters leave feedback, I will get back to it.

nvett
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Re: GC Unit Revisions v12 beta2 (June 15, 2014)

Post by nvett » Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:00 am

Love the Long War mod

caca
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Re: GC Unit Revisions v12 beta2 (June 15, 2014)

Post by caca » Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:14 am

deducter wrote: If any posters leave feedback, I will get back to it.
Yesterday I finished GC 39.
Difficulty Rommel.
Given scenarios units with heroes were not disbanded. This is due to the fact that players in the tournament have a different experience of the game and wanted to they all went through the tournament. For those who always played on the General, it is difficult to play on Rommel.
This is the only deviation from the conditions mod.
In the tournament, we consider points: prestige + prestige from the disbanding of the core + fast pass each scenario + how many killed by enemy - how many lost their units. And yet, we limit the number of reloads scenario 5, for a greater number of penalty points to the tournament.
So we save their own units, and try to pass as quickly as possible. :D

The general impression from GC 39 the game is not balanced. However this is not a problem fashion, but the problem itself campaign . :(
When scenarios Spoils of war, Warsaw, Narvik, we pass for 1/2 turns with level of difficulty Rommel, it is not good.

My core at the end of the campaign.
4 infantry (two of them with transport).
4 Gebirgsjäger.
1 Pioniere.
2 Panzer IA. In the second half of the campaign is not used. Kept them to upgrade to PZ III, but failed.
3 Panzer 38(t)A.
1 8.8 cm FlaK 36. Very rescued in scenarios with aircraft and tanks.
1 3.7 cm Pak 36. After Piatek not used.
1 10.5 cm leFH 18
1 15 cm sFH 18
1 10.5cm K 29(p)
1 Sd.Kfz. 222. It is better Panzer IA.
1 Bf 109E. Couldn't get a second star.
2 Stuka (one with Rudel).
2 Bf_110.

Suggestions for improvement.
Another 25% to reduce the speed of receiving the first and second stars.
To reduce experience in aviation.
To increase the prestige for surrendering unit, otherwise not interested. The prestige of them still little, but will receive moral satisfaction.
In an ideal it is necessary in each scenario to increase the number of units core AI, to the reinforcement of the allies came not on the last turn, but much earlier. This will extend the number of moves to win.

In principle I have all replays of the tournament. So if you need just ask.

PS. Why then this site nobody wants to compete? :D

deducter
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Re: GC Unit Revisions v12 beta2 (June 15, 2014)

Post by deducter » Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:49 pm

Thanks for your feedback! Some points:
Given scenarios units with heroes were not disbanded.
I don't mind players using whatever settings they like. I personally disband the heroes because I feel they make the game much easier (the campaigns were created before the heroes were added). Nice to see some feedback on their inclusion. If you disband them, the scenarios should be more challenging.
The general impression from GC 39 the game is not balanced. However this is not a problem fashion, but the problem itself campaign . :(
When scenarios Spoils of war, Warsaw, Narvik, we pass for 1/2 turns with level of difficulty Rommel, it is not good.
I'm impressed, I definitely didn't beat Spoils of War or Warsaw with half the turns left on Rommel. I must be getting sloppy.
2 Panzer IA. In the second half of the campaign is not used. Kept them to upgrade to PZ III, but failed.
You can upgrade this in GC40. PzIII is unavailable in GC39.
1 3.7 cm Pak 36. After Piatek not used.
Honestly this unit just isn't that great. There's no way to make it good without making it completely unrealistic. I did make it cheap. And if you carry it through the war, in 1943 you can upgrade it to the monstrous Pak 43.
1 Bf 109E. Couldn't get a second star.
Yeah I noticed that without strafing good units fighters gain experience more slowly. I'm not convinced this is a bad thing. It was the experten who really racked up impressive kills, but they were rare. Not every pilot is a Hartmann. I always found it silly to "train" your fighter aces by strafing ground targets. Thus, if you want to build a powerful force of fighters (and experienced ones are amazing), you need to feed them constant elite reinforcements. I may consider upping the AD for experienced fighters again just because of this, but I was worried about the issue with 2-3 star Allied fighters later on.
Another 25% to reduce the speed of receiving the first and second stars.
A reasonable request for 1939, but honestly it's still not going to make it much harder early on. I also don't mind the early years being easier. Because if you've played v11 of my mod in 1943+, it's plenty challenging. It is entirely intentional that most of the challenge comes in 1942 and especially in 1943.

It is important to keep experience gain fairly fast, because you need this in the later war years. I could set it individually for each year, but unless there's a very compelling reason, I don't like to make mechanics too complicated. I do this with elite reinforcements/green reinforcement exp because I felt it was important enough to do so, to make both reinforcement choices more compelling. With this exp gain, it's just a fairly minor balance change that is unlikely to impact difficulty significantly.
To reduce experience in aviation.
If it were possible, I would mod it so that bombers and artillery gain exp much slower. Unfortunately, this is currently not possible.
To increase the prestige for surrendering unit, otherwise not interested. The prestige of them still little, but will receive moral satisfaction.
The GCs were created without the prestige for surrender mechanic. I set it very low so that it is a basically a nonfactor. That being said, I am not against increasing the amount slightly, so it goes from "almost zero" to "very low."
In an ideal it is necessary in each scenario to increase the number of units core AI, to the reinforcement of the allies came not on the last turn, but much earlier. This will extend the number of moves to win.
I'm not convinced this is necessary, because I have reduced the firepower available to the player (bombers/artillery/overstrength). This also works to the player's disadvantage when defending later on, so you cannot always just create a solid wall of units and keep reinforcing the frontlines to keep the AI back. You may have to shuffle units forward and backwards. Not really relevant until 1942, but I prefer the current system.

I hope you move onto GC40 and GC41. Especially when you get into Russia, you will see that with each passing day that victory may not be so quick and easy.

Rockety
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Re: GC Unit Revisions v12 beta2 (June 15, 2014)

Post by Rockety » Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:23 am

Hey Deducter, Any plans for 43 release? :) iam at Sevastopol assault, now thats a hard one with the new unit cap. The biggest change i found that the core must be a lot more map specific. Although on this map i think i cannot achieve a dv without major losses. :(

Waffenamt
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Re: GC Unit Revisions v12 beta2 (June 15, 2014)

Post by Waffenamt » Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:45 pm

Hi,
I'm going at a considerably slower pace at FM level and just completed the dreaded Wassigny scenario with a DV. I came out of it with 14873 PPs, but lost a PzII unit, which was OK since it only had acquired a movement hero from Stonne, but an SE Inf unit (with a 2-point attack hero) also paid the ultimate price bravely holding up the French attack while my other units made their escape. Luckily I had "rebuild" enabled so my SE unit is fighting once again at Amiens. I disbanded the depleted PzII unit and purchased a Pz III unit instead. The previous time, which was a few revisions back, when I played Wassigny I also had a DV, but with no losses and a lower 9130 PPs. I must admit that I'd also watched deducter's video at that time for this battle beforehand as I had been obliterated at this point on my very first run through.

On another note, I'm also trying to hold off on getting a StuG III unit until 1941. I had used one previously at Wassigny and that's probably how I avoided losses, but since there were only a few in France at the time I decided to play more historically and took it on the chin instead. They certainly make a difference though!

So, I'm getting more prestige with this revision, partly because I'm playing better and partly because its harder to avoid the out-and-out fighting. I'm also finding the AI a tougher opponent and I may have to play the gambit a bit more as I progress. Even at this stage I'm finding it more challenging, which is great, and I'm really enjoying going through these scenarios again as I've had to think a bit more and change my approach to things. Keep up the great work deducter!

deducter
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Re: GC Unit Revisions v12 beta2 (June 15, 2014)

Post by deducter » Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:27 am

Glad to hear more feedback! I do plan on doing GC43, but I find myself playing this XCOM mod a lot. Perhaps a bit too much...

@Rockety
I agree that the changes do make DV harder, if not impossible, on the urban warfare maps without very specific core composition. In particular, you will need elite infantry, and you will have to attack at bad odds into the enemy at certain positions. I think this is a positive change that appropriately reflects the ferocity and bitterness of street fighting compared with the previous versions. It was all too easy to just use mass artillery to suppress everything and clean up with overstrength infantry. The mass artillery also protected you from counterattacks. Now, you will take bloody losses from both assaults and Russian counterattacks, and this is entirely intentional. I don't think it is too bad, because MV is still pretty easy to achieve. One of my goals with this mod is to give the player a historical feeling, and I think even a veteran player will think of Stalingrad as a fitting graveyard for some of his finest troops.

I think if you really want to win DV on those maps, you will need to use the hero units given to you throughout the course of the campaign. If you don't and can still win DV, you are definitely an expert player.

@Ogontion
As you play, your skills will certainly improve, and I am not surprised that you are having better success. However, I think in some ways prior to Russia the game is actually easier with this new version, since the relative power of strength 10 units is actually improved, and players rarely overstrengthed early on in the campaign anyway. Don't forget that this change works both ways. Eventually in 1943/1944 your 10 strength units will not just get obliterated in one shot by those 13/14 strength Russian units.

Just wait until Russia. Things will really start to get interesting.

Rockety
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Re: GC Unit Revisions v12 beta2 (June 15, 2014)

Post by Rockety » Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:10 am

Yes exactly that was the case, i bought additional para trooper infantry prior to this scenario for fun and experience. I barely pulled them out on 1-3 strenght. At the very and bitter end i was even moving my panzers into the city to attack the last positions. Also the heavy forts cannot be 1 shot depleted, which makes the situation even worse, one of my most experienced artillery got annihilated. The map was a lot more historical than before :) i hope you find some time for 43 while you Keep the aliens at bay :-/

okiemcguire
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Re: GC Unit Revisions v12 beta2 (June 15, 2014)

Post by okiemcguire » Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:36 pm

I have been playing DLC 39 with your mod on FM level. I am loving it. I am still having issues (forgetfulness) that I cannot use my fighter to strafe land units. However, that just means using additional fighter bombers. On with the war and DLC '40

Waffenamt
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Re: GC Unit Revisions v12 beta2 (June 15, 2014)

Post by Waffenamt » Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:31 pm

I'm halfway through '41 at Ostrov with this mod. Whereas with previous versions I only used 1 Me 110 unit, I brought in another 110 unit for the Maginot line and it's been a valuable asset since then. Although I've been disbanding those special hero units that show up in some battles I actually kept Heinrich Bar (Bf 109) and upgraded him to the 109 F at the first opportunity. I use him as the "wingman" unit so my other 2 Bf 109 E units can rack up some extra kills since, as you've observed, they can't strafe ground units now. Speaking of which, my infantry units are definitely more involved in determining the outcome of the battles now.

Regards

Waffenamt
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Re: GC Unit Revisions v12 beta2 (June 15, 2014)

Post by Waffenamt » Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:55 pm

It took me a while to finish the GC , but just thought I'd check back in here now that I've finished '41 and am ready get back in action at Vitebsk in '42, still at FM level. I've had more fun slogging through the battles with this mod and it really favours the combined arms approach. The 2 toughest '41 battles were Vyazma and the Demyansk pocket. I just had lousy weather for Vyazma and was fine with getting an MV and not even pointing a gun at Moscow.. With Demyansk I got surprised a few times by those units holed-up on the western side. They seemed to be more aggressive that the previous times I played. I got that last Ju 52 unit safely over an airfield before major harm could occur from the east as well. But I digress - here are some observations from using this great mod:

Fighters - I didn't like the change with ground attack at first but now I much prefer it. It works both ways - no big strafe-ups by enemy fighters, the need for another fighter bomber unit or 2, fighters can still suppress enough to prevent enemy units from quickly recovering or retreating if used property. Heroes take longer to develop since they can't kill ground unit, but this helps balance things out.

Artillery - this is the first time I didn't upgrade any 105s to 150s, since they seem to be quite effective and the extra ammo helps. I upgraded 2 units to Stugs when they got attack heroes and replaces them with more 105s. I also got a movement hero and that moved to a Nebelwerfer unit. It is harder to knock off ammo points with entrenched or urban-located enemy units, but that again feels more balanced.

Units in the open - they will now pay the penalty with this mod! Panzers are much more effective for this in this mod, and again this has a better feel to it. On the other hand, entrenched and units in close terrain seem to take advantage of their cover better.

All-in-all everything seems to work well with this mod and unit upgrades and costs feel about right. I'm ready to tackle the next GC now!

monkspider
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Re: GC Unit Revisions v12 beta2 (June 15, 2014)

Post by monkspider » Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:19 pm

Deducter my old friend! It's great to see you back. I have had an itch for some Panzer Corps so I think I will start a new campaign with your mod. Sounds like you managed to totally overhaul things as always.

monkspider
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Re: GC Unit Revisions v12 beta2 (June 15, 2014)

Post by monkspider » Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:28 pm

Oh, one quick question. Is this mod designed for old rules or new rules (prestige soft cap, and all that)?

MikeAP
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Re: GC Unit Revisions v12 beta2 (June 15, 2014)

Post by MikeAP » Thu Dec 25, 2014 8:45 pm

I just picked up the 39 & 40 Campaigns as part of the Steam sale and decided to finally give this mod a try.

Good work, deductor. I'm glad that you've brought the infantry back into the fight.

A few observations/feedback

1. Regular Infantry forces cannot traverse dense woods. What led you to this design feature? Infantry units with trucks/armored transport should be limited, but a light force should be able.

2. Gebirgsjäger are beasts! I'm using three of them in my '39 battle group.

3. Panzers, especially the early models, are no longer the steel beasts of the vanilla game. Im just concerned about their performance against AA and artillery. During Lodz I was successful in using them doctrinally, punching into the enemy rear area, but was useless one I got there. They were just on par with the defending AA and artillery.

Overall, I think this mod is on the right track; combined arms wins fights, and forces are much more realistically balanced. Looking forward to the day when you expand to later equipment sets, and Allied Corps!

WinterWiking
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Re: GC Unit Revisions v12 beta2 (June 15, 2014)

Post by WinterWiking » Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:04 pm

Nice mod really, i would play more historical, and watching deducter's vid on youtube from 1.12 version, i would this feeling of not easy at all campaign but historical in v1.23. Though i would the Elit unit/SS panzerkorps mod for RP reasons, i manually reworked all the stats from deducter's mod to this one, took me like a full night :D .

However i'm curious about how it will run in 1944 and 1945, if the stats deducter added will satisfy me enough or if i will have to rework them. Since he stopped his work in 1942, i feel it will not be however, but i keep hope it will run ok for the life of my panzer IV in early 45 :D .

WinterWiking
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Re: GC Unit Revisions v12 beta2 (June 15, 2014)

Post by WinterWiking » Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:32 pm

Wow. I've reach the scenario of Moscow in 1941, and it gets really ... bloody, don't want to imagine how it will be in Stalingrad a year later.

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