Diplomacy is a bit weak

4X strategy game from Proxy Studios

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stiefelss
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Diplomacy is a bit weak

Post by stiefelss » Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:49 pm

I think you all know what I mean by this. There aren't too many options where diplomacy is concerned. For example, you can't demand money or land or anything in exchange for ending a war. If you're on the winning side of a war and the other civ has something that you can't get by wiping them off the planet, then wouldn't you want to have some sort of deal for peace? Something that would also add to diplomacy is resources. We already have some tiles with features on them that give local benefits, so maybe we could, instead, give them a global benefit (20% production bonus in all cities instead of 50% in one for example) and make it tradeable for money or other resources. I'm just throwing ideas around that have been done over and over again in other games, but I'd really like to see more solid and varied diplomacy.

jdmillard
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Re: Diplomacy is a bit weak

Post by jdmillard » Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:26 pm

It would be nice to make exchanges for peace, or anything for that matter.

Igorputski
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Re: Diplomacy is a bit weak

Post by Igorputski » Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:47 am

I feel diplomacy should be removed in all games. It's just a crutch and an exploit vs the ai anyways and serves no purpose than to give the player time to prepare or build up vs the ai.

Did no one but me ever play "Empire", that was a game that there was no diplomacy from the start. Everyone was at war and that's the way you dealt with the ai the entire game. It was a game of attrition and of course luck, but it was a lot of fun because you knew when you spotted something you were already at war with it.

I blame Warlords for implementing diplomacy features into games. They just had to have some basic diplomacy crap that didn't amout to a hill of beans because you ended up going to war with that faction anyways. It was just a delaying and exploitive action as far as I'm concerned.

If you want diplomacy then buy the game "diplomacy" don't bring it into every game that's made with war now.

If I have the ability to turn it off in any game that's what I do and that's the way you have to play in MP if you play in my games. All for one and one for all sotospeak in my games. )

jdmillard
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Re: Diplomacy is a bit weak

Post by jdmillard » Sun Apr 13, 2014 3:21 am

I'll admit that a lot of games struggle to get solid diplomacy. It's just a challenge to make it feel real... and yes, there are some exploitable features sometimes.

But what you suggest is like saying: "since some cars don't work very well and all cars are gonna break down eventually, we should all just stop driving them completely."

Igorputski
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Re: Diplomacy is a bit weak

Post by Igorputski » Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:51 am

Cars have nothing to do with a "game". We are talking diplomacy in "games' which is ridiculous and apples to oranges to do with cars. What silly nonsense you make with your car analogy talking about diplomacy in "games' lol

Here's the big difference in your silly analogy. We can live without diplomacy in games since it's a stupid implemtation anyways and never works. Cars on the other hand we need to get long distances and other life necessities. Cars are necessary, games are not nor is diplomacy in games. :))

stiefelss
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Re: Diplomacy is a bit weak

Post by stiefelss » Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:32 pm

Diplomacy should work if the AI has as much potential and ability to take advantage of it as the player. That's a lot to ask for from a dev, but I think it adds a whole new dynamic to 4x games, especially where AI is involved (in multiplayer you could have some crude form of diplomacy through private/team messages and whatnot). With diplomacy, you can have a bad start where you expand too slowly and still come out on top with clever use of it. Conversely, even if you have a great start and become a superpower, poor use of diplomacy on your part in contrast to a clever AI would impede your victory. Things would be very one sided without the ability to make deals like trade and alliances. Luck would be too big of a factor for the game to be any fun.

jdmillard
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Re: Diplomacy is a bit weak

Post by jdmillard » Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:57 pm

@Igorputski: Apples and oranges can still be compared and contrasted my friend. I also point out below why the analogy works in your favor: hear me out.

I'll cede that the analogy isn't perfect (trust me, I over-analyzed it too before posting). That being said: Most people agree that a car is the best way to go, but there are exceptions (the exceptions are people who view a car as a hassle). Most people believe that diplomacy is a necessary part of these games, but there are likewise a few exceptions. The analogy actually works in your argument's favor if you expand it; I was wondering if you'd pick up on it. Here's why: all you had to do was expand the metaphor and mention buses. Buses offer people the ability to avoid all the hassle of a car. Just make my analogy work in your favor and then lobby to the devs to implement a "bus" in the game. The "Pandora bus" would be the option to disable diplomacy altogether (as you mentioned before) allowing those like you to avoid the hassle (and exploits) and just play straight-up-war (even I would probably experiment with this feature just to see what it's like... it might be fun). They probably wouldn't create an option in the game, but you could request them to make it moddable. On multiple occasions, they've made certain things moddable upon a single request by people in the forums... so you might have a chance.

This is the key: My metaphor attacks the notion of "removing diplomacy from all games" (a pretty radical demand). However, If you expand the metaphor to include buses, it simultaneously supports your desire to have a "disable diplomacy" (pandora bus) option. At the end of the day, I'd say that the analogy isn't that bad.

Igorputski
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Re: Diplomacy is a bit weak

Post by Igorputski » Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:12 pm

The only game I ever played in my 30 years of gaming with a decent diplomacy system was a game called "War of the Lance" you merely used the diplomats you got with their random diplomacy points to gain another ally before the dark lord did. It amounted to he with the most got the faction after a number of turns and random rolls to get said ally on your side. Thus, while you were doing this and putting just about all your eggs in one basket to get that faction the Dark Lord was using his points to gain another faction. It was the least exploitable system I ever saw. While surely gaining the faction you had chose with max diplomacy points you had to wait on random luck anyways to gain them.

The ai could handle this feature of the game by exploiting back at the player going after something else or someone else. The player for the most part would not decrease his max diplo points to make sure he got the faction he wanted and so the AI became the exploiter which I greatly enjoyed. Sometimes I got Minotaurs and the AI didn't but not very often and only if I got lucky in a few turns. Usually though I would lose Maelstrom a vital navy faction in the process so they had this diplomacy feature programmed well. If player goes after what should be our melee class we'll go after their naval faction. Worked real well.

Other systems leave the AI wide open though for player exploits, like in Civilization where you just brow beat a civilization into giving you what you wanted or took it in war or spying (which also was easy to exploit). They just can't program a good computer ai diplomat. All they can do is keep saying "no" to you up to a point of struck money or item amount which is usually an unrealistic amount anyways so what's the use of diplomacy? The other thing is like I said or have said about it in games of like AOW whereby it lets you into its lands camp on its capital doorstep with 3 max armies and then allows you to declare war and be done with it on the next turn. First of all I would never let an ally (I don't care how great we get along on tv lol) have privy to my borders and certainly not next to the Whitehouse with 3 full armies of units. This is how stupid diplomacy feature is because it allows that chit to happen.

If they made it simple like in War of the Lance I could accept it as it would be very hard to exploit the feature. Or an "option" I'm not opposed to leaving out diplomacy altother if it's not simplified. Otherwise Diplomacy is a game "breaker" for me as it just makes the ai too easy and sily to have in the game anyways if all the ai is ever going to do is say "no",

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