poll do axis need more oil

PSP/DS/PC/MAC : WWII turn based grand strategy game

Moderators: firepowerjohan, Happycat, rkr1958, Slitherine Core

axis extra oil

axis without extra oil
31
65%
yes
17
35%
 
Total votes: 48

soh
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poll do axis need more oil

Post by soh » Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:47 pm

i hope some of the 5000 people who downloaded the gs mod can can fill in the gaps

please do not be shy guys

soh
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Re: poll do axis need more oil

Post by soh » Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:50 pm

soh wrote:i hope some of the 5000 people who downloaded the gs mod can can fill in the gaps

please do not be shy guys
by the way soh for extra oil

marklv
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Re: poll do axis need more oil

Post by marklv » Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:56 pm

soh wrote:i hope some of the 5000 people who downloaded the gs mod can can fill in the gaps

please do not be shy guys
Oil should be irrelevant. Historically, the Germans only started having oil problems in 1944 when the Romanians sought ways to get out of the war. Moreover the Germans also made their own synthetic oil from rubber.

In essence it was a non-issue until the Summer of 1944.

AdmiralSarek
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Post by AdmiralSarek » Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:46 pm

Part of the problem I think is that it is to easy to bomb the on map oil out of the game.

And in the war they also turned coal into gas, but this could be represented by the of map oil.

BuddyGrant
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Post by BuddyGrant » Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:12 pm

I voted "Yes, axis without extra oil"!

rkr1958
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Post by rkr1958 » Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:39 pm

In the GS v1.06/v1.07 strategy guide there's a writeup by Joe Rock on how to manage oil as the axis. I encourage you to read it as Joe is the master on this. In fact, in a game I just finished against him his oil levels never got below 200 and that was at the end. So I think the issue you're experiencing with oil is more due to not fully appreciating the finer details of playing the axis and conserving/managing your oil. Again, I would look to Joe's write up in the GS manual.

Joe's writeup is Section 24 and it starts on page 152. I'm sure you've read it and you're using all the tips that Joe's included. I know I have and I am.

supermax
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Post by supermax » Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:06 pm

Of course i vote more oil.

As i understand Joe's trick to save oil, it would help playability and maybee keep the germans on the offensive in 1943

leridano
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Re: poll do axis need more oil

Post by leridano » Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:18 am

marklv wrote:
soh wrote:i hope some of the 5000 people who downloaded the gs mod can can fill in the gaps

please do not be shy guys
Oil should be irrelevant. Historically, the Germans only started having oil problems in 1944 when the Romanians sought ways to get out of the war. Moreover the Germans also made their own synthetic oil from rubber.

In essence it was a non-issue until the Summer of 1944.

Germans did really have a shortage of oil all over WW2. This a known fact: prior to Barbarossa the russians provided great amounts of oil because of this lack of oil. And it is said that one of the reasons for launching Barbarossa was to take russian oil fields. See this: http://vanrcook.tripod.com/Germanfuelshortage.htm


So we have here to distinguish again between fantasy wargames, that can be fun by laughable,:wink: and simulation wargames which are supposed to represent an historical scenario at a strategic, tactical or operational levels.




    soh
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    Post by soh » Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:28 am

    cool thats 12 out of 5000 people who downloaded the gs mod, i do wish the other 4988 members would not be so shy and after u vote leave your name and why u voted yes/no

    rkr1958
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    Post by rkr1958 » Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:45 am

    soh wrote:cool thats 12 out of 5000 people who downloaded the gs mod, i do wish the other 4988 members would not be so shy and after u vote leave your name and why u voted yes/no
    I think most of the others have probably read Joe's strategy and know how to manage axis oil in order not to run out. The folks that do; especially early in the game, are probably the less experienced players in need or the tips in the guide. Even super aggressive players like Max, which they get close, still manage not to run. And look at what's Max accomplished.

    JyriErik
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    Re: poll do axis need more oil

    Post by JyriErik » Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:08 am

    marklv wrote:Oil should be irrelevant. Historically, the Germans only started having oil problems in 1944 when the Romanians sought ways to get out of the war. Moreover the Germans also made their own synthetic oil from rubber.

    In essence it was a non-issue until the Summer of 1944.


    It was an issue before that. While MAJOR operations weren't hampered by a lack of oil until the Ploesti oil fields were lost, some planned operations didn't take place due to oil considerations. Malta is the best example. Since operations in Russia had priority on all sort of assets, the oil required for Rommel to strike towards Cairo AND to allow the invasion of Malta simultaneously didn't exist, so after Gazala the choice had to be made whether to strike east, or take Malta, so the Malta operation was scraooed since it was felt that once Cairo fell, then Malta wouldn't matter anymore, so why use the oil for that operation. There were many opeations that could have been useful that weren't even considered seriously due to the oil situation.

    Also, one of the major reasons "Wacht am Rhein" took place in the west, despite OKW & OKH wanting to use the forces on the eastern front, was that since the US used gasoline for its vehicles as Germany did & the Russians used diesel, and since it was well known that the Americans had ENORMOUS fuel dumps, near the front due to being an entirely motorised army, Hitler felt that those fuel dumps could supply the offensives' POL needs handily.

    Jyri

    soh
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    Re: poll do axis need more oil

    Post by soh » Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:58 am

    JyriErik wrote:
    marklv wrote:Oil should be irrelevant. Historically, the Germans only started having oil problems in 1944 when the Romanians sought ways to get out of the war. Moreover the Germans also made their own synthetic oil from rubber.

    In essence it was a non-issue until the Summer of 1944.


    It was an issue before that. While MAJOR operations weren't hampered by a lack of oil until the Ploesti oil fields were lost, some planned operations didn't take place due to oil considerations. Malta is the best example. Since operations in Russia had priority on all sort of assets, the oil required for Rommel to strike towards Cairo AND to allow the invasion of Malta simultaneously didn't exist, so after Gazala the choice had to be made whether to strike east, or take Malta, so the Malta operation was scraooed since it was felt that once Cairo fell, then Malta wouldn't matter anymore, so why use the oil for that operation. There were many opeations that could have been useful that weren't even considered seriously due to the oil situation.

    Also, one of the major reasons "Wacht am Rhein" took place in the west, despite OKW & OKH wanting to use the forces on the eastern front, was that since the US used gasoline for its vehicles as Germany did & the Russians used diesel, and since it was well known that the Americans had ENORMOUS fuel dumps, near the front due to being an entirely motorised army, Hitler felt that those fuel dumps could supply the offensives' POL needs handily.

    Jyri
    the brit naval really beat Rommel with 80% of supply fuel been part and the rest (amno,water,food etc) at the bottom of the med

    soh
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    Post by soh » Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:05 am

    rkr1958 wrote:
    soh wrote:cool thats 12 out of 5000 people who downloaded the gs mod, i do wish the other 4988 members would not be so shy and after u vote leave your name and why u voted yes/no
    I think most of the others have probably read Joe's strategy and know how to manage axis oil in order not to run out. The folks that do; especially early in the game, are probably the less experienced players in need or the tips in the guide. Even super aggressive players like Max, which they get close, still manage not to run. And look at what's Max accomplished.
    remember now do not be shy and cast your vote anyway thank you, so come on the other 4998 ww2 lovers

    rkr1958
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    Post by rkr1958 » Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:54 am

    soh wrote:
    rkr1958 wrote:
    soh wrote:cool thats 12 out of 5000 people who downloaded the gs mod, i do wish the other 4988 members would not be so shy and after u vote leave your name and why u voted yes/no
    I think most of the others have probably read Joe's strategy and know how to manage axis oil in order not to run out. The folks that do; especially early in the game, are probably the less experienced players in need or the tips in the guide. Even super aggressive players like Max, which they get close, still manage not to run. And look at what's Max accomplished.
    remember now do not be shy and cast your vote anyway thank you, so come on the other 4998 ww2 lovers
    soh, please stop baiting me and others. If you wish to learn how to manage your oil in GS then read Joe's writeup as I suggested. If you wish to not have to worry about oil then turn it off.

    zechi
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    Post by zechi » Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:57 am

    I find the Axis oil level is perfectly balanced. You only get oil problems with the axis if you do not play carefully. I think it is quite common that the oil level gets quite low if you play very aggressively and/or the Allies bomb strategically the Axis oil sources. However, if you play aggressively and you are successful you should manage to get some of the Allied oil sources either in the Caucasus or in the Middle East (or even both). If you play very aggressively and you are not succesful, then you will of course lose the game ;)

    I also think that it is OK that the Axis get oil problems if the Allies succesfully strategically bomb the Axis oil sources for several turns. After all this should be the result of this strategy and the Axis has several options to counter it (build advanced FTR for interception, gain enough ground that the Allied STR cannot bomb the oil sources etc.).

    soh
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    Post by soh » Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:14 am

    rkr1958 wrote:
    soh wrote:
    rkr1958 wrote:I think most of the others have probably read Joe's strategy and know how to manage axis oil in order not to run out. The folks that do; especially early in the game, are probably the less experienced players in need or the tips in the guide. Even super aggressive players like Max, which they get close, still manage not to run. And look at what's Max accomplished.
    remember now do not be shy and cast your vote anyway thank you, so come on the other 4998 ww2 lovers
    soh, please stop baiting me and others. If you wish to learn how to manage your oil in GS then read Joe's writeup as I suggested. If you wish to not have to worry about oil then turn it off.
    im sure the other 4998 members will have their say on the matter of the poll thank you.as someone who has paid for my own copy that gives me the right to have my own say on matters, as always thank u for listening. looking forward to poll on axis (extra oil or without extra oil) oh do not forget to put down your name down aswell as your vote

    Plaid
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    Post by Plaid » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:50 pm

    I suggest "other 4998" saying nothing mostly because they find entire conversation silly. Germany has limited oil because (surprise!) it is not Saudi Aravia. There is no oil in most of the Europe and you can't do anything about it. Maybe nuclear engines for tanks and airplanes given by 6 level industry can help the situation :D :D :D

    harrybanana
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    Post by harrybanana » Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:18 am

    I voted against any more oil for the Axis because I beleive the current levels are close to being correct. However, I would not be opposed to a minor adjustment; say increasing Axis oil by 50 or so to start the War, or slightly reducing oil consumption of some units.

    My recollection is that the Italian Navy was also severly hampered in its operations by a lack of fuel.

    soh
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    Post by soh » Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:19 am

    Plaid wrote:I suggest "other 4998" saying nothing mostly because they find entire conversation silly. Germany has limited oil because (surprise!) it is not Saudi Aravia. There is no oil in most of the Europe and you can't do anything about it. Maybe nuclear engines for tanks and airplanes given by 6 level industry can help the situation :D :D :D

    their is only 93 poeple who have put down their e-mail on the (: Multiplayer (Hseat, PBEM, TcpIP) opponent seeking plus guide)not 5000, u saying that 4998 are on this forum looks a little unlikely and out of 93 only 25 have only cast a vote,so still think 5000 poeple downloaded this gs mod also looks very unlike but if poeple cast a vote and leave thier name i will be wrong so lets sit and wait for the vote i can wait,u telling me (4998" saying nothing mostly because they find entire conversation silly) just relax so the vote will show all.

    Ironclad
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    Post by Ironclad » Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:18 pm

    soh wrote:
    Plaid wrote:I suggest "other 4998" saying nothing mostly because they find entire conversation silly. Germany has limited oil because (surprise!) it is not Saudi Aravia. There is no oil in most of the Europe and you can't do anything about it. Maybe nuclear engines for tanks and airplanes given by 6 level industry can help the situation :D :D :D

    their is only 93 poeple who have put down their e-mail on the (: Multiplayer (Hseat, PBEM, TcpIP) opponent seeking plus guide)not 5000, u saying that 4998 are on this forum looks a little unlikely and out of 93 only 25 have only cast a vote,so still think 5000 poeple downloaded this gs mod also looks very unlike but if poeple cast a vote and leave thier name i will be wrong so lets sit and wait for the vote i can wait,u telling me (4998" saying nothing mostly because they find entire conversation silly) just relax so the vote will show all.
    The vote won't show all it will simply show the results of the minority of players who choose to vote.

    Self sufficiency in oil (and indeed other resources) was a major concern for the Nazi leadership from the earliest days of the Third Reich and this explains the massive investment that Goering, as head of the German economic plan, authorised for the oil from coal plants despite it being such an inefficient and highly expensive use of coal. Its the reason why Hitler was obsessed before Barbarossa in any Soviet moves towards Rumania and its vital oil fields. In the planning for the attack in the East the OKW plan as distinct from the OKH one put a high premium on the importance of achieving the economic goals including access to the Soviet oil fields. Hitler pushed for the early occupation of the Crimea to shut down any likelihood of airstrikes from there against Ploesti and in Operation Blue he made the Caucasian oil fields the central objective of the whole campaign.

    One of the great strengths of CEAW is that it builds into the game at a number of levels - geography, strategy, economics, force mix, operational choices - the vital importance of oil particularly to the Axis and I wouldn't want to see that changed.

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