Soviets should start with Tech 0 Across the Board

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metolius
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Soviets should start with Tech 0 Across the Board

Post by metolius » Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:58 pm

So, re-oppening a can of worms here, but I really think the Soviets should start at tech 0 across the board. The reasoning is part game play, and part historical.

Game play – the game is pretty tilted to the Allies for the average player. This would help. Sure, a few top Axis players can win almost all the time, but I think the new supply rules should curb that a bit.

Historical – the Soviets had lot's of good technology, much of it as good as the Germans, and some of it better. Nevertheless, a lot of it was not used particularly well, especially at the beginning of the war.

Just a thought.

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Post by Rasputitsa » Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:16 pm

It is not so much the Tech Level which should change, but Effectiveness and Efficiency. Some of the equipment was good, but much of it was not available, or inefficiently used. :D

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Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:27 am

This is why the Russians lose 30 efficiency when Barbarossa starts and only gain half efficiency for 4 turns.

You can't let the Soviets start with tech 0 in everything without allowing them to build more labs earlier. If not the tech gap between the Germans and Soviets will be too big. Russia starts with 0 labs and very low war effort. They gain 7 war effort every quarter and that means they will have maybe 5 labs when Barbarossa begins. Germany has 11-12 labs at the same time. So the initial gap in 1939 will increase till at least 1942.

We also have the same problem with USA. So they start with some initial tech too.

The initial tech is set at a level so the tech level at the time they entered the war is pretty accurate.

If you want to let the Russians and Americans to start with mostly tech level 0 then they should have a higher war effort so they can quickly get labs to increase the tech levels. If we do that then both countries will get a much bigger production until 1942. The result is that we would have to remove quite a bit of at start units to compensate. That is not very historical.

The alternative could be to increase war effort per quarter by 15 instead of just 6, but that would also end up with a higher peace time production than now.

When we look at Russian armor units it's a historical fact that the their armor units were better armored than the German armor units. They didn't perform well due to poor organization and leadership, not because if inferior technical quality.

The Soviet organization was poor at the start of Barbarossa, but they learnt from their mistakes and reorganized the Red Army. They ended up with a much better organization and that helped seizing the initiative from the Germans. With the current game engine it's not possible for the Russians to catch the Germans since Germany starts with 3 and Russian only 1 (0 in the vanilla game).

So the game engine has some limitations. We've simulated this by allowing Russia to start with tech 1, but lowered the increase from 0 to 1 to only 3. Instead you get a big increase between 1 and 2 ( 8 ) and even bigger from 2 to 3 (10). From 3 to 4 the increase is only 6 and so on.

This way we make sure the Russians can almost catch the Germans despite being 2 tech levels behind. Since the initial tech has such a low increase it means the Russians have 18 less max efficiency than the Germans at the start of Barbarossa. That comes in addition to the 30 efficiency loss suffered by the Russians at the start of Barbarossa. This means that in GS v2.0 the Russians can't perform at all in 1941 until the winter hits. If you try to form a defense line at the Dnepr then it will be easily crushed. So you have to run away to save most of your army. This means that most Axis players should be able to get to the historical line in November 1941.

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Post by Rasputitsa » Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:44 am

I should have been more specific, I am not supporting any changes, only commenting that if any change was required it would be in effectiveness and efficiency and not with Tech level. The game seems to address this issue already. :D

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Post by Kragdob » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:20 am

Stauffenberg wrote:The Soviet organization was poor at the start of Barbarossa, but they learnt from their mistakes and reorganized the Red Army. They ended up with a much better organization and that helped seizing the initiative from the Germans. With the current game engine it's not possible for the Russians to catch the Germans since Germany starts with 3 and Russian only 1 (0 in the vanilla game).

So the game engine has some limitations. We've simulated this by allowing Russia to start with tech 1, but lowered the increase from 0 to 1 to only 3. Instead you get a big increase between 1 and 2 ( 8 ) and even bigger from 2 to 3 (10). From 3 to 4 the increase is only 6 and so on.
Soviet had quite good organization but at the front level and higher - this is not reflected (does not exists) in the game at all. At middle and low levels their abilities (effectiveness in the game) was inferior to Germans. In the game Soviet can equal Germans in effectiveness as soon as in late 1942 which means that game says that Soviet Army was equal or better than German (say INF) corps. It was almost never the case until the end of the war.

Germans lost the East Front mostly due to Hitler's wrong decisions and lack of troops/supply to cover the line (single defensive line in the game), not because they had worse units.

And in this aspect I think the game misses with history.

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Post by zechi » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:44 am

Kragdob wrote: In the game Soviet can equal Germans in effectiveness as soon as in late 1942 which means that game says that Soviet Army was equal or better than German (say INF) corps. It was almost never the case until the end of the war.
I don't think this is true at all. The Germans start with Organisation 3 and Soviets start with 1. Even if the Soviets invest all Labs and Focus into Organisation, it will be nearly impossible to get the same level as the Germans in organisation, especially not in late 1942. Only with luck in science for the Soviets and bad luck (or no or very few labls in General) for the Germans this can be possible. Normally the Soviets will also invest Labs in other areas, such as Air, Inf, ARM etc., so it is very unlikely that the Soviet can get on par with the Germans in organisation.

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Post by Kragdob » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:03 am

zechi wrote:
Kragdob wrote: In the game Soviet can equal Germans in effectiveness as soon as in late 1942 which means that game says that Soviet Army was equal or better than German (say INF) corps. It was almost never the case until the end of the war.
I don't think this is true at all. The Germans start with Organisation 3 and Soviets start with 1. Even if the Soviets invest all Labs and Focus into Organisation, it will be nearly impossible to get the same level as the Germans in organisation, especially not in late 1942. Only with luck in science for the Soviets and bad luck (or no or very few labls in General) for the Germans this can be possible. Normally the Soviets will also invest Labs in other areas, such as Air, Inf, ARM etc., so it is very unlikely that the Soviet can get on par with the Germans in organisation.
I am right now having game when Soviets have equal effectiveness than Germans in 1942. They upgraded on turn 55/56. I have 2 labs in general (no focus though). We didn't play with random research. I think I put to little effort in this area but Soviets having 80 effectiveness in 1942 is a little bit unhistorical for me.

You can look what can be done (no air is needed)
viewtopic.php?t=27854

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Post by Kragdob » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:07 am

Stauffenberg wrote:You can't let the Soviets start with tech 0 in everything without allowing them to build more labs earlier. If not the tech gap between the Germans and Soviets will be too big. Russia starts with 0 labs and very low war effort. They gain 7 war effort every quarter and that means they will have maybe 5 labs when Barbarossa begins. Germany has 11-12 labs at the same time. So the initial gap in 1939 will increase till at least 1942.
One note on this. Can Germans really build all lab slots, say, e.g. in 1940? I'd say it would rather around late 1940/early 1941. So for selected areas Soviets will have almost the same progress as Germans.

I'm testing that right now :-)

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Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:15 am

80 efficiency is not high at all. German units adjacent to e. g. Manstein can have efficiency above 100 by the end of 1942.

Efficiency is: 40 + 2* quality + 3 * supply + organization bonus + leader bonus.

E. g. Germany has tech 4 organization: that means a bonus of: 3+8+10+6 = 27
Adjacent to Manstein means: 2*6 = 16
Let's say the unit is a mech with quality 6 in supply level 5. That means 2*6 +3*5 = 27

The total is: 40 + 27 + 27 + 16 = 110

In the 1942 German summer offensive they usually have about 95 efficiency at the start of the offensive.

Russia will usually have tech 2 organization at that time. That's only +11 compared to Germany +27. Russia has supply level 5 instead of German supply level 4 so that's 3. It means German units have in 1942 13 better efficiency than the Russians.

Russia needs to get to organizaton tech 3 to really get god efficiency. That happens usually in 1943

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Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:21 am

Kragdob wrote:One note on this. Can Germans really build all lab slots, say, e.g. in 1940? I'd say it would rather around late 1940/early 1941. So for selected areas Soviets will have almost the same progress as Germans.

I'm testing that right now :-)
When I build as the Axis I usually do the following. Get one lab in each of the 5 areas in 1939. That's not hard to accomplish.

Early 1940 I build one lab per turn until I have 2 in infantry, armor, air and general. I keep 1 in naval.

In January 1941 I build the third lab in infantry, armor and air. As soon as I reach tech 3 in industry I build the third general lab. It usually happens late 1941 or early 1942.

So from early 1942 I have 3-3-3-1-3 labs as the Germans. So in order to catch on the Germans you need to get a 4th lab and that can only happen from 1943.

There is no way the Allies or Russians can get more labs faster than Germany using my strategy above. When Germany gets tech 6 in dogfight they can sell 2 of the air labs and build a 4th infantry and armor lab.

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Post by Kragdob » Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:00 pm

Thanks. I think I put too little focus in organization in my (first) game as Axis and allowed Soviets to catch me.

Looks like organization is one of the most important tech where you need to keep advantage.

Does difference 50-80 (between max effectiveness of Soviets - Germans) gives the same advantage as e.g. 80-110?

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Post by metolius » Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:27 am

Stauffenberg wrote:This is why the Russians lose 30 efficiency when Barbarossa starts and only gain half efficiency for 4 turns.

...

When we look at Russian armor units it's a historical fact that the their armor units were better armored than the German armor units. They didn't perform well due to poor organization and leadership, not because if inferior technical quality.
Hi there! You reasoning is good, as always, and I stand by my suggestion.

The hit to Soviet efficiency just isn't enough –– sure, it helps the Axis kill units in the first few turns, but there are a lot more units to kill, so it's a wash, at best.

Second, the Soviets did have great equipment, but it was badly deployed, at every level e.g. suicidal frontal attacks by Russian armor in front of Kiev.

In the game, the Russians should have plenty of units to throw into the mix, but I think the Germans should have the technical edge until at least 1943 or even 1944.

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Post by Plaid » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:23 am

In my current game vs Zechi I built soviet ARM labs since very beginning, and still he able to reduce 6-10 steps with 2german TAC attacks vs this units.
So you offer to reduce it even further, so maybe 1 bomber hit will wipe out entire unit?

Germans have very significant tech edge over soviets through all the game, if they didn't neglect early lab builds (which I consider fatal error).

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Post by Rasputitsa » Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:51 pm

metolius wrote:
In the game, the Russians should have plenty of units to throw into the mix, but I think the Germans should have the technical edge until at least 1943 or even 1944.
But surely it is not so much a technical edge the Germans have, but an advantage in Efficiency, Effectiveness, Command, etc..

The Germans went into Russia with huge numbers of PZ I and PZ II afvs, which were technically inferior to most Russian afvs, it was the way they were used which made the difference. :D

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Post by Plaid » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:27 pm

In the game, the Russians should have plenty of units to throw into the mix, but I think the Germans should have the technical edge until at least 1943 or even 1944.
There is simple no way to make tech advantage be active *until* certain date. If it will be placed from start, it will be here until the very end.

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Post by schwerpunkt » Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:51 pm

Rasputitsa wrote:
The Germans went into Russia with huge numbers of PZ I and PZ II afvs, which were technically inferior to most Russian afvs, it was the way they were used which made the difference. :D
Just a note: Pz Is were withdrawn from most units before the french campaign due to their poor performance in Poland. By Barbarossa, PzIIs were considered obsolete but plenty were still in service though. PZ IIIs and Czech 38ts were the most numerous tanks.... Still not comparable to the KV tanks or T-34s but able to cope with the BTs and T-26's....

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Post by shawkhan » Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:53 am

Many radios and the unmatched German staff were the keys to early German success in Barbarossa. This is reflected quite well in their higher organization levels already.
There are a few things I would like to see in GS, the ability to disband units to recover manpower is high on my list for instance, but please leave initial starting forces alone.
Russian fighting equipment was definitely on a par with the Germans by 1941.

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Post by Kragdob » Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:07 am

I think Soviets should have ORG at 0 at the beginning of the game. The problem for me is not that they can reach lvl 3 in late 1942 but that this make it a must for Germans to focus on organization and not on industry which was happening in reality (Germans introduced 'war effort' in industry around 1941/1942, peak for tank production was 1944).

As opposite to low effectiveness Soviets should have 1 in attack for INF and ARM as their doctrine was totally offensive in 1941.

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