Research

PSP/DS/PC/MAC : WWII turn based grand strategy game

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vypuero
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Research

Post by vypuero » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:37 pm

Does anyone else think that research can be done far too narrowly? At the maximum of 13 labs, the axis can purchase 7 armor labs, which means incredibly advanced tanks by the time of barbarossa.

I would like to see a limit of say 3 labs per area, with the old 12 lab limit reinstated - this would go to 15 labs at maximum industrial tech (125%) so the overall maximum would theoretically be 3 labs x 5 areas = 15 labs.

This will keep research from being too unbalanced, but still allow for early purchasing of the labs in some areas to focus an advantage.

borsook79
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Re: Research

Post by borsook79 » Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:00 pm

vypuero wrote:Does anyone else think that research can be done far too narrowly? At the maximum of 13 labs, the axis can purchase 7 armor labs, which means incredibly advanced tanks by the time of barbarossa.

I would like to see a limit of say 3 labs per area, with the old 12 lab limit reinstated - this would go to 15 labs at maximum industrial tech (125%) so the overall maximum would theoretically be 3 labs x 5 areas = 15 labs.

This will keep research from being too unbalanced, but still allow for early purchasing of the labs in some areas to focus an advantage.
13? Hmm maybe its connected to difficulty level I have a maximum of 11. Anyway I don't think it is unbalanced. Cost of such a tactic means that Germany would not have many such tanks and the enemy investing heavily in air could counter it.

vypuero
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Post by vypuero » Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:54 pm

vs human not ai u should have 13 labs (its less vs ai set to advantage)

its pretty unstoppable russia cant build enough labs to counter it in time - maybe they can win still - not the point - I dont care if i win as axis doing this - its boring and unrealistic way to play.

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Post by Ryben » Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:53 pm

Yes, i also feel that researching is done pretty fast. I would like to see a slower progression....barely 1 or 2 advances per year (more realistic, i think). That super-heavy tanks appears as soon as 1942 and i didn´t expected them until 1945...

vypuero
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Post by vypuero » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:48 pm

you can make some easy changes yourself! just open the general.txt file and go down to research and set the max labs and cost increase to whatever you want, and this will reduce research by either making it more expensive, or have less labs available, or both.

actual # labs available is modified as max labs x war%

Peter Stauffenberg
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Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:16 pm

I agree with Vypuero says, but would think the maximum should be 4 labs instead of just 3 labs. Some areas like Infantry will need many labs to advance pretty fast.

I think the research difficulty factors for air units should be set higher. They're now 25 for dogfight and 20 for ground support and strategic operations. This means we get new tech from air too quickly. With just 3 labs as the Axis player I will have tech 6 in all categories by the end of 1943.

I also think it's maybe too easy to get lots of labs after you're at war. E. g. Germany can build 13 labs from 1939 and a little later 14 and 15. Why not say that you can build max 8 labs + number of game years after 1939 modified for war effort. That means Germany can build max 8 labs in 1939, 9 labs in 1940, 10 labs in 1941 etc. With such a change it may not be necessary to alter the air difficulty factors too much.

Now Germany can quickly build 13 labs (at least after France has fallen) and can enjoy a tech advantage for quite some time. If Germany can have 10 labs in 1941 it means he will probably have something like this: 2, 2, 3, 1, 2. Then it's not possible to get super advanced tanks for Barbarossa. With max armor effort it's possible to have 1, 4, 3, 1, 1 in 1941. Even then you won't see the strong Panther tanks in 1941.

vypuero
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Post by vypuero » Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:41 pm

the thing is - even at 10 you can go to 5 if you want to short everything else.

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Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:08 pm

vypuero wrote:the thing is - even at 10 you can go to 5 if you want to short everything else.
That's why I proposed max 4 labs in one area. :wink:

vypuero
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Post by vypuero » Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:40 pm

I agree with max 4 labs - that is how I am playing now by house rule.

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Post by joe98 » Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:19 am

No, do not agree that in any one area there be a max to the number of labs,

Rather:

- once one area reaches 3 labs, you cannot purchase any more labs in that area untill ALL areas have at least 1 lab

- once one area reaches 4 labs, you cannot purchase any more labs in that area untill ALL areas have at least 2 labs


and so on
-

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Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:11 pm

joe98 wrote:No, do not agree that in any one area there be a max to the number of labs,

Rather:

- once one area reaches 3 labs, you cannot purchase any more labs in that area untill ALL areas have at least 1 lab

- once one area reaches 4 labs, you cannot purchase any more labs in that area untill ALL areas have at least 2 labs

and so on
-
That is not right. In my current game against Happycat I have the following number of labs 5,4,3,1,2. So I have 5 infantry labs and only 1 naval lab.

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Post by vypuero » Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:38 pm

he was saying thats the way he wants it to be, not the way it is

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Post by Happycat » Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:10 am

vypuero wrote:he was saying thats the way he wants it to be, not the way it is
Considering how my game against Stauffenberg is going, I would like it that way too :lol:
Chance favours the prepared mind.

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Post by firepowerjohan » Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:13 pm

Happycat wrote:
vypuero wrote:he was saying thats the way he wants it to be, not the way it is
Considering how my game against Stauffenberg is going, I would like it that way too :lol:
Can you evaluate on that? Do you agree that we need a tougher limits that the "half of labs per area" ?
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Peter Stauffenberg
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Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:02 pm

I've been thinking a lot about how to find a good way of restricting how many labs you can place into one area. E. g. in my game against Happycat I managed to max out all air techs in September 1943 only with 3 air labs. This is because you have 25, 20 and 20 for the 3 air categories. Maybe they should be increased to 30, 25, 25? I built 3 air labs asap as Germany and only had 1 lab in all other categories until I could boost the other areas.

So it may be possible to limit the max number of labs dependent upon the year. E. g.
1939 max 1 lab in each area
1940 max 2 labs in each area
1941 max 3 labs in each area
1942 max 4 labs in each area
1943 and beyond max 5 labs in each area

In addition only 1/2 of the labs can be in one particular area (as now).

This way it's not possible to get too big head start upon e. g. Russia and USA. Britain can't afford to buy so many labs early so this means they won't fall too far behind.

In my current game with Happycat he is the Allies and he has a very hard task against my high tech Germans. I still have the tech advantage because I put all efforts I could into labs. I ended up with 5 in infantry, 4 in armor, 3 in air, 1 in naval and 2 in general.

We are now in November 1943 and I soon have maxed out infantry techs. This has devastating effects because my infantry has very high antitank factors and attack of 5 and defense of 4. So the Allies can't attack these units properly. The Allied armor units are all wiped out from an attack by German infantry (I have 14:1 expected results) or German armor (55:1 as expected result). So when the infantry can get this technologically advanced as early as 1943 because I built 5 labs in 1941 I think then it means I have most of my units far superior that the Allies. E. g. the Russian are faced with expected results of 4:5, 4:6 or worse attacking my infantry.

Since I have such advanced air units compared to the Russians (tech 6 in all categories) I can kill 2 Russian fighters per turn if I want to and heavily deplete his tac air. So he can't get the air support needed to get his offensive going.

This problem comes from 2 reasons. One that the Germans could build too many labs in the important areas too early and that it's al most impossible to catch up techs inferiority when the Germans have so many labs in the important areas.

I think changing the air techs from 25 (dogfight), 20 (combat support), 20 (strategic operations) to 30, 25, 25 should help preventing the air units techs max out too early. In addition one should limit the number of labs in each area based upon the current year.

Both these changes will mean it's easier to catch up the Axis tech wise. The Germans will only have 2 labs in each area in 1940 and that means they won't get too far ahead before 1941 and Barbarossa. Germany can then quickly build the third lab in infantry, armor and air in January 1941 and have some extra tech advantage before Barbarossa starts, but it's not as devastating as now.

Now the Germans can build many labs early had have 3 air and armor labs early in 1940 if they want. Then it's not fun being the Allies, especially the Russians. The key is, however, to get many labs in infantry to have better infantry than your opponent.

I think it's ok to allow 5 labs in one area from 1943 and beyond. This is because e. g. the Russians should be able to focus their
labs into e. g. infantry or armor to catch the Germans before the main offensives in 1944 and beyond. So if we limit the number of labs in one area to 3 or 4 then the Russians won't be able to catch up until the Germans max out their techs and can't advance further.

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Post by vypuero » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:12 pm

I like your idea Stauffenberg if it can be implemented - in fact I also agree with the air being harder. Your play has matched the exact results I have been getting in human vs. human play too!

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Post by rkr1958 » Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:37 pm

I just got the game a couple of weeks ago. I've played a couple and been reading through the posts. This one on research labs was especially interesting. Given my experience level (actually lack of experience). If I understood I just got the game a couple of weeks ago. I've played a couple and been reading through the posts. This one on research labs was especially interesting. Given my experience level (actually lack of experience) is it the opinions of others are that research labs need to be constrained for balance play? If I understood Stauffenberg post in this thread correctly then,

Labs_Max_Per_Area = max(1, min(Lab_Max_YR(yr), floor(Labs_Tot/2))), where

yr Lab_Max_YR
- --------------
1939 1
1940 2
1941 3
1942 4
1943+ 5

and Labs_Tot = total number of labs across all areas of research.

Opinions ... feedback on balance & playability?

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Post by shawkhan » Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:18 pm

There are only two real problems in this game in my opinion. One is buying Commanders and the other is Research. In my opinion, countries at peace should have minimal research labs available to them. Research labs are too numerous in the game. I would suggest NO research labs allowed in 1939, then increase by one each year, up to a maximum of perhaps 4 in an area.
Commanders I think should come with a side, not be paid for. I think it better if they had their own individual HQ unit, not be assigned to a combat unit, although I can live with it as it currently is. I have finally gotten smart enough to assign them to an infantry or garrison unit so that I can keep them safely behind the lines unles they have an offensive or defensive bonus.

borsook79
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Post by borsook79 » Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:29 pm

shawkhan wrote:There are only two real problems in this game in my opinion.
Plus AI :)
shawkhan wrote: In my opinion, countries at peace should have minimal research labs available to them.
Isn't it how it is right now? unless you should define "minimal".

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Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:09 pm

rkr1958 wrote: Labs_Max_Per_Area = max(1, min(Lab_Max_YR(yr), floor(Labs_Tot/2))), where

yr Lab_Max_YR
- --------------
1939 1
1940 2
1941 3
1942 4
1943+ 5

and Labs_Tot = total number of labs across all areas of research.

Opinions ... feedback on balance & playability?
My proposition was this:

Max labs per category:
1939 1
1940 2
1941-1942 3
1943-1944 4
1945+ 5

In addition the current rule of allocating max 50% of the labs into one category still applies.

Happycat and I playtest this rule now as a house rule for our game mod. I will tell you our experiences with such a rule.
We think it will help avoiding maxing out e. g. the air techs in 1943.

Another benefit is that Germany won't have such a huge technological gap vs the Russians in 1942 and beyond.

So far with playtesting solo I don't find the limitation of max 1 lab per area in 1939 will limit any side a lot. The reason is
the game starts in September 1939 and only Germany can afford to get many labs. Usually Germany will get a lab in
all categories anyway. Max 2 labs in 1940 will not hamper any side a lot either because you can't afford to pay for lots of
labs. The biggest difference is that e. g. Germany can't put focus into e. g. air and armor and build 3 labs in 1940. So they
won't get a huge tech advantage against the Allies. Britain can only afford to build several labs when the convoys start
arriving. First Britain will need more DD's to stop the subs.

In 1941 you can max have 3 labs and this means it's not possible for any nation to focus lots of labs in one area (like
air or armor) to get a huge advantage. So you will start feeling the above suggested rule from 1941 and beyond.

What will happen is that the Allies have a chance to almost catch the Germans tech wise. Germany can have 13 or 14 max
labs in 1941 and will usually have 3, 3, 3, 2, 3 instead of e. g. 3, 4, 4, 1, 2.

What will be the most important factor of all for technology is how many labs you decide to build. Britain can have 13 labs
in 1941, but will usually not be able to afford so many labs. Especially if the subs have been effective. This is the way Germany
can get a bigger technological advantage.

In our last game I put asap 5 labs into infantry and maxed out infantry techs in the latter half of 1943. This meant I had super
infantry corps units with 5 attack, 4 defense, 8 antitank factors etc. Russian armor units were killed instantly by these monsters
and my infantry could attack Russian motorized units and get 8:3 odds. Russian armor units were completely useless since
they had expected odds of 3:15 against German infantry and 1:30 against German armor. So we also changed the max possible
antitank values to 2 for garrisons, 4 for corps and 6 for motorized. But these units will with the altered max lab rule arrive late
in 1944 if you put max effort into infantry.

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