Does Armour get a penalty *defending* in cities?

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OxfordGuy3
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Does Armour get a penalty *defending* in cities?

Post by OxfordGuy3 » Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:56 pm

Hi - I've seen people in AARs imply that Armour gets a penalty *defending* in cities, but this isn't mentioned anywhere in the manual - does it actually get a penalty or is this an "urban myth" (sorry, couldn't resist...)

pk867
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Re: Does Armour get a penalty *defending* in cities?

Post by pk867 » Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:58 pm

If click n any hex that is empty the lower left hand panel known as the Unit Panel will display the various attributes of the hex.

If you mouse over the tank icon, the attack penalty by armor defending in the hex.

In Options you can toggle tooltips. These values I believe are the same since the vanilla version.

Vanilla version is CEAW Gold

OxfordGuy3
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Re: Does Armour get a penalty *defending* in cities?

Post by OxfordGuy3 » Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:44 pm

pk867 wrote:If click n any hex that is empty the lower left hand panel known as the Unit Panel will display the various attributes of the hex.

If you mouse over the tank icon, the attack penalty by armor defending in the hex.
I thought that was the penalty for armour attacking the hex, not defending? Does armour not get a special penalty for attacking a city hex then, I thought it did?

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Re: Does Armour get a penalty *defending* in cities?

Post by GogTheMild » Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:16 am

pk867 wrote:If you mouse over the tank icon, the attack penalty by armor defending in the hex.
Paul, usually your explanations are crystal clear, but I can see why OG struggled with this one.
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pk867
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Re: Does Armour get a penalty *defending* in cities?

Post by pk867 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:49 am

Hi,
Actually I may be incorrect, in looking at the charts and performing some hotseat testing. It is hard see if there is a penalty when armor defends

in some hexes. Also whether armor suffers different penalties when attacking hexes say in the case of mountainous terrain.

It can be sometimes difficult to actually determine what will happen when you attack a hex. Which after all this time I do not have it right yet :(

OxfordGuy3
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Re: Does Armour get a penalty *defending* in cities?

Post by OxfordGuy3 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:49 pm

GogTheMild wrote:
pk867 wrote:If you mouse over the tank icon, the attack penalty by armor defending in the hex.
Paul, usually your explanations are crystal clear, but I can see why OG struggled with this one.
Yes - is the penalty for armour attacking a non-clear hex or for defending in it? Or even for attacking out of a non-clear hex? This has never been clear to me! Thanks!

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Re: Does Armour get a penalty *defending* in cities?

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:02 pm

According to the code you get the armor penalty both attacking and defending in hexes where the attack penalty applies.

if(attacker.isArmour())
attackFire *= pResource.getTankPenaltyModifier();
if(defender.isArmour())
defenceFire *= pResource.getTankPenaltyModifier();

In addition defending units use the ground defense value and not the ground attack value. A typical armor unit can have ground attack 8 and ground defense 4. So placing an armor unit defending in a city is probably not a good idea. You still get the defense bonuses from the hex (entrenchment, attack across river etc.).

If you look at the code above it's the firepower you shoot with that will be reduced by the tank penalty modifier. So you inflict less damage upon your opponent.

Late game tank units have very high survivability (better than infantry). This is a good reason to put a tank unit in a key defensive city. Ok, you don't inflict a lot of damage when shooting at the attackers, but they have problems inflicting hits on you.

Early in the game it's best to try to keep the armor in the second line so they can't get attacked. I usually use my armor units to break up a defense line and let rear friendly corps units occupy the vacated hexes. I don't advance with my armor units if they become exposed to several enemy units. Killing armor units is very tempting for the other player.

OxfordGuy3
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Re: Does Armour get a penalty *defending* in cities?

Post by OxfordGuy3 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:42 pm

Stauffenberg wrote:According to the code you get the armor penalty both attacking and defending in hexes where the attack penalty applies.

if(attacker.isArmour())
attackFire *= pResource.getTankPenaltyModifier();
if(defender.isArmour())
defenceFire *= pResource.getTankPenaltyModifier();

In addition defending units use the ground defense value and not the ground attack value. A typical armor unit can have ground attack 8 and ground defense 4. So placing an armor unit defending in a city is probably not a good idea. You still get the defense bonuses from the hex (entrenchment, attack across river etc.).

If you look at the code above it's the firepower you shoot with that will be reduced by the tank penalty modifier. So you inflict less damage upon your opponent.

Late game tank units have very high survivability (better than infantry). This is a good reason to put a tank unit in a key defensive city. Ok, you don't inflict a lot of damage when shooting at the attackers, but they have problems inflicting hits on you.

Early in the game it's best to try to keep the armor in the second line so they can't get attacked. I usually use my armor units to break up a defense line and let rear friendly corps units occupy the vacated hexes. I don't advance with my armor units if they become exposed to several enemy units. Killing armor units is very tempting for the other player.
Thanks for clarifying, so armour gets an attack penalty attack into and out of cities and other hexes with armour penalties. I assume shock is unaffected, though?

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Re: Does Armour get a penalty *defending* in cities?

Post by BattlevonWar » Sun Apr 13, 2014 6:44 pm

Armor gets smashed on the defense in CEAW. Interesting part of this game is you learn something new almost every time you play or click. : ) Very complex! I would say historically tanks did poor in Marsh/Mountains/Cities cause you cannot really do much(they're not maneuvering) with them and in forests they can be in poor condition...depending NOW...but historically tanks were fine on the defense!

in this game there are not very good on the defense early I noticed as mentioned the tech helps later, infantry is awesome in this game on defense :) entrenched to high heaven

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Re: Does Armour get a penalty *defending* in cities?

Post by Kragdob » Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:50 pm

BattlevonWar wrote:Armor gets smashed on the defense in CEAW. Interesting part of this game is you learn something new almost every time you play or click. : ) Very complex! I would say historically tanks did poor in Marsh/Mountains/Cities cause you cannot really do much(they're not maneuvering) with them and in forests they can be in poor condition...depending NOW...but historically tanks were fine on the defense!

in this game there are not very good on the defense early I noticed as mentioned the tech helps later, infantry is awesome in this game on defense :) entrenched to high heaven
I agree that armored corps' defenses is undervalued in CEAW. Those are corps sized units and had plenty of infantry within (grenadiers/fizyliers etc.). So average tank corps should also have higher defensive values then average infantry corps, higher then pure motorized infantry due to hight fire power (tanks, assault guns etc.).

I did some tests and 15 Tigers with no infantry support would smash defenses of standard infantry battalion in 1 day if infantry had no support (e.g. American 44 inf battalion had 5 AT guns only) even if terrain was mixed forrests/clear. Similarily in defense - tanks were/are mobile artillery units and are great in defensive support.

But I do not vote for changes :-) 3.01 changes have some impact here as well. ARM units are one of the first to benefit from experience upgrades.
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