Buildings!!!!

[BrettPT]

We've always played that defenders of buildings need to be broken to be evicted as well - I think that this was the case in the playtest rules.

However under the published rules, the 'evict only if broken' rule only applies in combat, not for shooting. I suspect that this may be a format oversight (putting the rule under the combat section rather than as a general rule).

To me this is a pretty obvious mistake, which has the effect that it is easier to evict an entrenched enemy by shooting than it is by assault. Quite the opposite of what should be the case. In the absence of a fire, I cannot recall instances where defenders were driven from a town without being assaulted. Aderklaa (Wagram) perhaps, but this was more an error by Bernadotte rather than a forced reaction to the enemy.

With this annomally aside, the town fighting rules in FoGN are very good - once you get your head around them! Hopefully when the clarifications come out this will be tidied up.

Cheers
Brett

[Chasseur]

Hi Brett,

Totally agree. I have deliberately had buildings in recent games to show people how the rules work. And last weekend I put on Waterloo at Little Wars Melbourne. The battles around Hougomont were excellent and largely mirrored what happened in reality. The Dutch-Belgian Conscripts held out for quite a while until they were eventually Broken by fire (they had previously taken quite a few rounds of fire and also repulsed several assaults). Unfortunately for the French, they eventually broke the Dutch-Belgians by fire in the British turn, allowing a British Guards unit in their movement phase to pass a CMT and defend the building before the French could move in. It would have been quite unrealistic if taking the rules as currently written because the Dutch-Belgians would have been evicted on the 2nd turn if forced to retreat before they were Broken.

Cheers,
John Shaw

[terrys]

Q1. When "Defending" a building and getting hit from firing, if you get an outcome of retire do you retire? (Or do you only retire when broken?)
A1. You do retire.

Q2. If you do retire where do you measure the retire distance from? (I know that you don't retire when in combat until you are routed.)
A2. Your unit ends in tactical formation with its rear edge in contact with the building (direction is away from the firers). This means that it has a chance to immediately re-enter on the following turn.- with a CMT - or 2 CMTs if your unit is disrupted and the enemy is within 2MU of the building.

My replies were based upon strict reading of the rules.
The rule about only leaving the building if broken is quite clearly under the heading "General Rules for Combat against defended buildinds" - So this will have to be the interpretation until we publish an official clarification.
We certainly did play all the Beta games on the assumption that it meant for firing as well.

[Blathergut]

Any idea on when the clarifications will be out?

[donm]

Terry,

We certainly did play all the Beta games on the assumption that it meant for firing as well.

I have looked back at the beta test set I have and the wording has not changed in the published set. I don't remember it being discussed, but I may be wrong.

If this is what you intended, surely it would be best if we played that from now on?

I have to say that I am now so confused with all the 'Clarifications' that I have stopped playing the rules until they are released.

Hopefully these will be released before I feel the need to reconsider bt Amazon order for the first army list book.

Sorry, but that is the way I feel.

Don

[MikeK]

Thanks Andy. What concerns me more than villages is that the same rules apply to fortifications - i.e., assaulting a redoubt is a tough fight, but the defenders can be forced to retire from their fortifications by firing.

Q2. If you do retire where do you measure the retire distance from? (I know that you don't retire when in combat until you are routed.)
A2. Your unit ends in tactical formation with its rear edge in contact with the building (direction is away from the firers). This means that it has a chance to immediately re-enter on the following turn.- with a CMT - or 2 CMTs if your unit is disrupted and the enemy is within 2MU of the building.

Is the only textual support the rule for voluntary exit from buildings on p77?

MiikeK

[Chasseur]

Hi Terry,

When clarified for Buildings, I think it should also become the same for obstacles.
At the moment obstacles only allow "When assaulting an obstacle . . . Defending Infantry will not retire unless they become Broken." (p.80)

I think defenders of an obstacle or a building should not retire unless Broken, whether by firing or by assault.

Cheers,
John Shaw

[terrys]

I think defenders of an obstacle or a building should not retire unless Broken, whether by firing or by assault.

It depends upon the obstacle ....
For example, a river or stream is (usually) an obstacle. However, the infantry are still in the open from shooting, so would quite reasonably retire.
There are many types of terrain that could be defined as obstacles (any 'cover' could be enclosed fields for example),
Allowing units to be forced out of defended obstacle (as opposed to buildings and defences) stops a points based game from being bogged down by easily defended terrain.

For an historical or scenario game you can define obstacles as anything you want.

[MikeK]

Obstacles in any particular battle are often going to be sui generis.

Prepared fortifications should have more consistency in performance. I'm looking for a rationale for the ability to retire enemy from fortifications by shooting. Maybe it was just Russian stolidity, but the Great Redoubt at Borodino did not even provide good cover against a gigantic bombardment and was taken only by enveloping assault.

So how has shooting vs. assaulting fortifications been working in games?

[terrys]

Prepared fortifications should have more consistency in performance. I'm looking for a rationale for the ability to retire enemy from fortifications by shooting. Maybe it was just Russian stolidity, but the Great Redoubt at Borodino did not even provide good cover against a gigantic bombardment and was taken only by enveloping assault.

Fortification are treated the same as buildings for firing and combat - except through the rear.
We will release an FAQ specifically for buildings - Hopefully by the end of this week - in time for Roll Call.
We will be clarifying that troops will only retire from buildings (and fortifications) if they are broken.
This means that you will have to get someone to fire from close range, or assault them if you want to capture them.

[donm]

Terry wrote:
We will release an FAQ specifically for buildings - Hopefully by the end of this week - in time for Roll Call.
We will be clarifying that troops will only retire from buildings (and fortifications) if they are broken.
This means that you will have to get someone to fire from close range, or assault them if you want to capture them.

As I have been off line for a few days while I was in hospital having a routine operation.

Did this happen?

Don

[terrys]

As I have been off line for a few days while I was in hospital having a routine operation.

Did this happen?

I was sent off to be published. I'll have a word with Phil at Roll Call tomorrow.

[Blathergut]

*bumps this as well*

??: Can you assault occupying units? Where does an occupying unit end if forced to retire? Does an occupying unit get defensive fire vs assaulting units?

[terrys]

??: Can you assault occupying units? Where does an occupying unit end if forced to retire? Does an occupying unit get defensive fire vs assaulting units?

If a unit starts it's move in contact with the building it may move into it with a CMT. Both sides will fight as in rough terrain.
The defenders do not fire.
If forced to retire place the unit outside and touching the building in tactical formation and make the retire move from there - end facing backwards or forwards as normal. The attackers remain occupying the building - they cannot pursue since they are now considered to be defending an obstacle.

[Jilu]

eh? units need to be in contact with the building to assault? and need to do a CMT?

what we have found out is that you do not even need Artilery to have a unit vacate a building, it is almost impossible to redo a la Haie sainte situation.....but ok when you see battles in villages it was a lot of eb and flow...taking it, the losing it etc.....Waterloo was quite an uncommon Battle ....compared to all that preceded.

[shadowdragon]

eh? units need to be in contact with the building to assault? and need to do a CMT?

This is the case if the unit in the building is "occupying" the building. You do not need a CMT to assault a unit "defending" the building since you do not need to enter a building to assault the "defending" unit. You do have to enter the building to assault an "occupying" unit.

Also, a unit "defending" a building will only retire if it is broken. A unit "occupying" a building will retire according to the "Infantry/Otherwise" line of the outcome moves table.

I find with these difference I can indeed re-do La Haye Sainte or the typical to-and-fro of village fighting.

[Chasseur]

Hi Terry,

1.
If a unit starts it's move in contact with the building it may move into it with a CMT. Both sides will fight as in rough terrain.
The defenders do not fire.[/quote]

Can more than 1 unit (assuming they all pass their CMTs) move and assault an enemy "occupying" a building or can only 1 assault? (p.77 "A building can only contain 1 unit.").

2.
When leaving a building voluntarily, a unit is placed in Tactical with its rear edge touching the building. I read it that this takes the whole move to do so and they will not move further that turn, ending with rear edge still in contact (unless able to do a 2nd move by passing a CMT). Is this correct?

3.
In 2. above, in relation to the possible 2nd move, where do you measure the "enemy within 6MU" to check whether a valid 2nd move is allowed - is this any part of the building, or from the unit itself?

Cheers,
John Shaw

[Chasseur]

Hi,

Just found the answer to 1. in the post "Assaulting Buildings : Occupied" as

Only one unit may enter the building. It may gain the benefits of flank and rear support in the normal way.

Still not sure about 2 or 3.

Cheers,
John Shaw

[deadtorius]

When leaving a building voluntarily, a unit is placed in Tactical with its rear edge touching the building. I read it that this takes the whole move to do so and they will not move further that turn, ending with rear edge still in contact (unless able to do a 2nd move by passing a CMT). Is this correct?

I believe this is correct, getting out of a building is a full move.

3.
I

n 2. above, in relation to the possible 2nd move, where do you measure the "enemy within 6MU" to check whether a valid 2nd move is allowed - is this any part of the building, or from the unit itself?

If you are in a building you would measure to any part of the buildings footprint. You started the turn inside the building so you would measure from the building itself. Don't forget the second move restriction applies if you start your first move within 6 MU and you may not move to within 6 MU of enemy at any time during the second move.
If you start in a building and the enemy is within 6 MU they will stop your using a second move.

[Chasseur]

Thanks Deadtorius,
Cheers, John.