Charging question from Cold Wars

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Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by babyshark » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:07 pm

Forgive me if this is blindingly obvious to everyone but me. Can a BG charge if it cannot wheel to point it center at some part of the enemy BG?

I had a situation in which I wanted to order two BGs (one foot, one CV) to charge one enemy. Assume for the sale of argument, that the various CMTs would be passed. If the foot went in, then the CV would only be able to hit by charging straight ahead, which would clip a corner of the enemy; if the CV wheeled to point its middle at the enemy it would run into the back of the foot BG. If the CV assaulted first, then it would still be stuck hitting the corner of the enemy BG because wheels during assaults need to be done at the start of the move.

Talk to me.

Marc

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by deadtorius » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:02 pm

As long as you can contact an enemy you can charge it. Even with your corner is fine. In these rules you fight combats as a unit, not by individual stands, so just making contact is good enough.

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by Saxonian » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:04 pm

The short answer is yes.

There is no requirement for the centre-point of the charging unit to contact the target unit.

There is a limitation on how far you are allowed to wheel during a charge.
You can't wheel so that the centre point of charger's front rank goes past the centre point of target unit, and you can't wheel to get less of your front in contact.

It is perfectly ok for a charger to 'clip' its target with an end base, even in a one-on-one matchup.

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by babyshark » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:23 am

I've been had!

:)

Not that it would have made much difference. My superior, veteran, guard cavalry were imploding on the other side of the board, and my army was circling the bowl.

Marc

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by viperofmilan » Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:27 pm

I respectfully must disagree. As I read page 29, third bullet under WHEELING DURING AN ASSAULT, and I quote:

"A unit may only wheel towords their target and must wheel as far as necessary to place some part of the target in front of the centre of their own unit, or as far as possible if this would otherwise cause them to not reach their target."

As I read this, it seems clear that a charging unit must have some part of the target in front of it's own center, and must wheel to make this so if it is to charge.

Kevin

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by babyshark » Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:32 pm

viperofmilan wrote:I respectfully must disagree. As I read page 29, third bullet under WHEELING DURING AN ASSAULT, and I quote:

"A unit may only wheel towords their target and must wheel as far as necessary to place some part of the target in front of the centre of their own unit, or as far as possible if this would otherwise cause them to not reach their target."

As I read this, it seems clear that a charging unit must have some part of the target in front of it's own center, and must wheel to make this so if it is to charge.

Kevin
That would lead to the potential oddity of a BG that could hit its target with most of one front base, but be unable to charge because the wheel must happen at the start of the charge rather than in the middle (which would allow it to go around the intervening friend).

Marc

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by Blathergut » Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:02 pm

or as far as possible if this would otherwise cause them to not reach their target


You don't wheel if wheeling would cause you to miss your target.

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by deadtorius » Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:48 pm

In this case wheeling puts the cav into the backside of friendly infantry so it would cause them to not reach their target, so no wheeling required. The only way they can hit is with a corner so that's how it will have to be.

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by viperofmilan » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:33 am

Blathergut wrote:or as far as possible if this would otherwise cause them to not reach their target


You don't wheel if wheeling would cause you to miss your target.
Well, obviously. Nobody is suggesting you must wheel to miss your target. But I would still contend that the default is to wheel as necessary to place some part of the target in front of the center of your own unit. That is clearly the implication of the diagram on page 29. Unit B doesn't have to wheel to hit the target, but the note says B must wheel to point 2, and may wheel as far as point 3. So you must have your center line up on some part of the target and must wheel to make this happen. Appeaars very cut and dried to me.

Kevin

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by Blathergut » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:51 am

What it seemed like you were saying was that a unit must wheel to place its centre on enemy and if so, it might then be unable to charge, but would still have to conduct the wheel and miss its target. I was just clarifying that if this would cause you to miss, then you would not wheel.

I don't think anyone has disagreed with having to wheel if possible.

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by babyshark » Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:47 am

viperofmilan wrote:
Blathergut wrote:or as far as possible if this would otherwise cause them to not reach their target


You don't wheel if wheeling would cause you to miss your target.
Well, obviously. Nobody is suggesting you must wheel to miss your target. But I would still contend that the default is to wheel as necessary to place some part of the target in front of the center of your own unit. That is clearly the implication of the diagram on page 29. Unit B doesn't have to wheel to hit the target, but the note says B must wheel to point 2, and may wheel as far as point 3. So you must have your center line up on some part of the target and must wheel to make this happen. Appeaars very cut and dried to me.

Kevin
So the clarified question is: what if you can only hit the target by going straight ahead, and then only by clipping it such that your center never lines up on part of the enemy BG? Can one still charge?

Marc

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by Blathergut » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:08 pm

My reading of the rules is: yes, since the rules never say that if wheeling to line your centre up is not possible then no charge is allowed. But that's just this humble soul's 'read.'

Perhaps Terry could clarify?

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by viperofmilan » Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:11 pm

Marc,

Based on the diagram on page 29, I'd say no, you cannot charge as you have described. The unit int the diagram clearly is able to charge straight ahead and thereby clip the target unit, yet the diagram text clearly states it must wheel to have it's center line up on some part of the target in order to charge.

In the example from our fracas at Cold Wars, your cavalry could wheel to hit the target unit. As I recall, you wanted to be able to hit me with a foot unit as well and the necessity for your cavalry to wheel to place some part of my unit in front of it's center precluded that from happening by clogging up the limited space available. Seems perfectly resonable to me that cavalry charging pell mell across the field at a far faster pace than the poor foot sloggers could manage would have gotten in the way of the infantry and prevented their charge - just as it happened on the table at Cold Wars.

Just my two cents, but that is how I would rule it every time if I were the umpire.

Kevin

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by BrettPT » Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:55 pm

My view is that you don't have to wheel if doing so would stop you hitting the target.
This seems a no brainer to me and removes geometric arguments about whether a unit can fit in.

Cheers
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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by viperofmilan » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:00 pm

BrettPT wrote:My view is that you don't have to wheel if doing so would stop you hitting the target.
This seems a no brainer to me and removes geometric arguments about whether a unit can fit in.

Cheers
Brett
Well Bret, you may be right. But that clearly is not what it says on page 29.

Kevin

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by Blathergut » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:30 pm

Except page 29 does not deal with what happens if some other unit gets in the way except in that page 29 does state "as far as possible," so it does address what happens if something gets in the way.

Also, page 28, criteria for charging (2nd left-hand bullet): ...'must be able to make a normal advance move that will contact the target.'

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by shadowdragon » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:40 pm

viperofmilan wrote:
BrettPT wrote:My view is that you don't have to wheel if doing so would stop you hitting the target.
This seems a no brainer to me and removes geometric arguments about whether a unit can fit in.

Cheers
Brett
Well Bret, you may be right. But that clearly is not what it says on page 29.

Kevin
That is exactly what it says on page 29. I also see it as a no brainet.

""A unit may only wheel towords their target and...

must wheel as far as necessary to place some part of the target in front of the centre of their own unit

OR

as far as possible if this would otherwise cause them to not reach their target."

Clearly the "OR" indicates that in the case of the last clause some part of the target is NOT in front of the centre of the charging unit. If it were true the preceding clause would be satisfied and the last clause unnecessary. Note it says "not to reach the target" which would include bring blocked by another unit.

Also, the text always takes precedence over diagrams since diagrams are illustrative only and it's tricky to infer from them.

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by KeefM » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:50 pm

I'm with Brett. You have to wheel UNLESS that would mean not contacting.

In the diagram in the rules, wheeling must happen because doing so doesn't prevent contact.

For the example given at the outset of this thread, if the cavalry wheel they can't contact thus they don't need to wheel. That is precisely what the rule in question says - therefore they don't have to wheel. Pretty clear cut to me.

Consider: if the rule really did mean wheeling must happen every time then it simply wouldn't have provided for a unit not needing to wheel.

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by viperofmilan » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:00 pm

KeefM wrote:I'm with Brett. You have to wheel UNLESS that would mean not contacting.

In the diagram in the rules, wheeling must happen because doing so doesn't prevent contact.

For the example given at the outset of this thread, if the cavalry wheel they can't contact thus they don't need to wheel. That is precisely what the rule in question says - therefore they don't have to wheel. Pretty clear cut to me.

Consider: if the rule really did mean wheeling must happen every time then it simply wouldn't have provided for a unit not needing to wheel.
Not exactly. The cavalry could contact the target just fine by wheeling to bring some portion of the target unit in line with the cavalry's center. The problem for Marc was that if the cavalry moved thusly, it was not possible for his accompanying infantry unit also to charge in becasue it would have to advance and then wheel into contact - which is not allowed since all wheels in charges happen first. The diagram on page 29 seems pretty clear to me in requiring cavalry B to wheel to bring some portion of the target into line with it's center even thopugh a stright ahead charge would bring it's corner into contact with the target. If it is OK to charge as you are suggesting, why did the authors require cavalry B to wheel in the diagram? Because they must do so is the only answer. Again, it seems to me that any other interpretation leads to very cheesy "corner clipping" charges where a millimeter of my charging cavalry just barely clips the corner of a target unit, yet fights at full effect. That certainly doesn't seem right ot me and is not the way we have been playing it in my local group in Maryland.

We can agree to disagree (unless the authors care to wade in on this one and tell us what their intent was). But be forewarned that if I am umpiring a tourney or scenario game, I'll require that charging unit to wheel to line up or no charge.

Kevin

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by shadowdragon » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:10 pm

So if there is already an intervening unit positioned at the start that blocks the cavalry if it wheels to put the target ahead of it's centre but not if it wheels less, you wouldn't allow the charge?

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