Charging question from Cold Wars

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Philip
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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by Philip » Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:53 am

The moving unit may slide sideways as part of its move to avoid friends, instead of wheeling. Page 38, right hand column, 3rd bullet point.

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by BrettPT » Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:35 am

I keep scratching my head why this is an issue.
The rules say you do not have to wheel to line up your centre if this would prevent you reaching the target.
It provides an exception to the normal requirements.

Without the exception you wouldn't be able to charge a single enemy unit with 2 of yours that are lined up side to side, as a wheel would end up with the units crossing each others path. I suspect that multi unit charges would also cause problems as well.

In the diagram posted, the cavalry cannot charge as there doesn't seem to be room to wheel before charging without hitting the French infantry. If however the cavalry was a bit further to the right, it could wheel to be parallel to the Russians then charge straight ahead and clip the Russian unit.
Last edited by BrettPT on Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

BrettPT
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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by BrettPT » Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:39 am

Philip wrote:The moving unit may slide sideways as part of its move to avoid friends, instead of wheeling. Page 38, right hand column, 3rd bullet point.
Haven't got my rules handy, but I think you can only slide in a normal move, not in a charge.
I'll have to double check this.

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by Blathergut » Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:58 pm

BrettPT wrote:I keep scratching my head why this is an issue.
The rules say you do not have to wheel to line up your centre if this would prevent you reaching the target.
It provides an exception to the normal requirements.

Without the exception you wouldn't be able to charge a single enemy unit with 2 of yours that are lined up side to side, as a wheel would end up with the units crossing each others path. I suspect that multi unit charges would also cause problems as well.

In the diagram posted, the cavalry cannot charge as there doesn't seem to be room to wheel before charging without hitting the French infantry. If however the cavalry was a bit further to the right, it could wheel to be parallel to the Russians then charge straight ahead and clip the Russian unit.

The spacing is off. The cavalry did have room to wheel right and then go in. The debate was whether the wheel could cross the enemy center point and continue past it. I suppose it can be read/interpreted two ways:

a) As per p. 29 right-hand column top bullet: The cavalry may not wheel past the center-point.
b) As per "as far as possible if": The cavalry could wheel further to the point that they finally can hit the target.

Dead. interprets it the first way. I lean to the second. I don't see how the angling of the unit should make a difference on whether it can charge.

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by terrys » Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:00 pm

This rule is intended to stop players from getting some advantage out of wheeling during the charge to c'clip' some part of the enemy and gain some advantage by it. (for example, wheeling to hit the enemy in such a position that they no longer get flank support.
It is not intended to stop you contacting the enemy.

It you have to wheel past the enemy centre in order to contact them, then you are allowed to do so - the charge direction in this case being the minimum amount of wheel that would contact the enemy. Have defined that as the direction of charge, you could not then wheel any more, since this would take your direction of charge FURTHER past the enemy centre.

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by viperofmilan » Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:24 pm

Thanks Terry.

A follow up question if you don't mind. Can you explain to me the diagram on page 29, where the charging unit "must" wheel to put some part of the target unit in front of it's center. The charging unit clearly could have just charged straight ahead and contacted the target unit, so why "must" it wheel. Unless I am missing something (not at all unlikely) this is in clear contradiction to what you just posted about wheeling in a charge (which seems merely to want to limit the amount of wheeling).

Anxiously awaiting your reply.

Kevin

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by terrys » Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:44 pm

My previous post was to explain what would happen in the rare situation that you have an obstacle between you and the enemy (probably a friendly unit), and you cannot contact the enemy without having to wheel past its centre.

........XXXX
....YYYY


ZZZZ

In the above situation, the 'normal' legal wheel of ZZZZ would no be able to contact XXXX since it could not normally wheel far enough to get past YYYY. I was pointing out that ZZZZ can still wheel far enough to contact XXXX, but would not be able to wheel more than the minimum to achieve this.
........................................
Can you explain to me the diagram on page 29, where the charging unit "must" wheel to put some part of the target unit in front of it's center.
Under normal circumstance, a charging unit must attempt to wheel far enough that its centre is pointing at some part of the enemy (or as far as it can if this is not possible. The premise is that a charging unit would be attempting to get as many of its troops into contact with the enemy as possible, rather than fight with 2 men on the end (as an extreme case).

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by viperofmilan » Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:56 pm

terrys wrote:Under normal circumstance, a charging unit must attempt to wheel far enough that its centre is pointing at some part of the enemy (or as far as it can if this is not possible. The premise is that a charging unit would be attempting to get as many of its troops into contact with the enemy as possible, rather than fight with 2 men on the end (as an extreme case).

Thanks Terry. That is how our local group interpreted the rule as well, but we appeared to be in the minority.

Kevin

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by Carriage » Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:04 pm

Terry, you say under normal circumstances. What circumstances would you not need to wheel to get the centre pointing at some part of the enemy.

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by shadowdragon » Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:41 pm

I think there is no question that unit MUST wheel under "normal circumstances" to place some part of the enemy unit ahead of it's centre. So..."normal case" A:

XXXXX

......ZZZZZ

Unit Z must wheel, but the original question was...."? Case" B:

..XXXXX
YYYYY

........ZZZZZ

In this case if Z moves straight ahead it contacts Z but if it wheels to place unit Z ahead of it's centre it runs into the back of unit Y. My understanding is that viper is saying it can't contact because it must wheel. But if I read your comment your saying the intent isn't to prevent contact (e.g. There's an obstacle).

Everyone agrees on case A. The unit must wheel as shown in the diagram. No disagreement.

By in case B. Can unt Z contact unit X?

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by shadowdragon » Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:48 pm

So the original question is:

If there is an obstacle between the charging unit and the target such that wheeling to place some part of the target ahead of centre results in the charging unit bring blocked, can the charging unit wheel LESS so that it contacts the target even though some part of the target will not be ahead of it's centre?

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by Blathergut » Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:22 pm

Oh my gosh, how can this still not be clear?

1st priority: wheel the charging unit so that it's center point lines up with some part of the enemy...you may keep wheeling if it brings more of your unit to bear on the enemy unit (as per the diagram page 29)

2nd priority: if wheeling in this manner would cause your unit to NOT be able to contact, then the above requirements do not apply. You may wheel in whatever manner you need to to be able to contact the enemy unit...but...you may not wheel more than the minimum to allow contact.

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by Blathergut » Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:16 pm

In several places it's been mentioned (e.g., charging when out of command range) that the intent of the design isn't to limit ability to charge and contact, but to make this possible in as many situations as can be.

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by terrys » Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:43 am

So the original question is:

If there is an obstacle between the charging unit and the target such that wheeling to place some part of the target ahead of centre results in the charging unit bring blocked, can the charging unit wheel LESS so that it contacts the target even though some part of the target will not be ahead of it's centre?
The answer is - Yes
There is no charge unless the charging unit can actually contact the target.

So the sequence would be:
1) The assaulting unit declares its charge and the target.
2) Declare the amount of wheel if more than the minimum amount required to contact the target.
3) Increase the amount of wheel to place at least part of the target to the front of the centre of the charging unit - or as far as possible - as long as the charging unit can still contact the original target.

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by shadowdragon » Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:01 pm

Thanks Terry. That's clear.

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by Blathergut » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:51 am

reading thru old posts...bumping this one back up

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