Charging question from Cold Wars

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Blathergut
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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by Blathergut » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:41 pm

Also, there is no set order of charges. If the soon-to-be blocking infantry are moved into their charge first, then the cavalry have no choice in the matter.

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by viperofmilan » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:11 pm

If I correctly understand your question, no I wouldn't.

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by shadowdragon » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:00 pm

viperofmilan wrote:If I correctly understand your question, no I wouldn't.
So please explain under what circumstances the clause after "or" applies since it would seem to me that "...or as far as possible..." Implies that the unit does not have "some part of the centre of the target in front of the centre of their own unit..." for the exception described.

"A unit may only wheel towords their target and must wheel as far as necessary to place some part of the target in front of the centre of their own unit, or as far as possible if this would otherwise cause them to not reach their target."

As I see it your ruling overrules what's is written. That's fine but I expect tournament participant s to be annoyed if this modification of the rules were not explicitly stated up front. It might be advisable to do so.

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by shadowdragon » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:05 pm

In the case of the diagram on page 29 unit wheeling does not cause it to "not reach" it's target so it must wheel to place the target in front of it's centre. So it's not relevant to the discussion of the exception.

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by viperofmilan » Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:56 pm

I'm not so sure there was intended to be an exception. A unit may declare a charge on a unit no part of which is lined up on the chargers center for the simple reason that a unit can, and IMO must wheel to bring this condition into existence. That is why it is not a pre-condition for being able to declare a charge. I believe, and in Maryland we have been playing, that it is always required that a charging unit be able to bring some part of the target unit in line with it's own center. To my way of thinking, that is the clear statement of the rule and the situation illustrated by the diagram on page 29. If you take a moment to look at both carefully you can see that there is no disagreement between the rule as written and the diagram IMHO, so the question of which takes precedent simply doesn't arise.

As to the question of order of charges in a case where a cavalry unit and an infantry unit are attempting a combined arms assault, since the cavalry unit charges without a CMT and the infantry must pass a CMT it is not unreasonable to conclude that the cavalry moves first as the infantry is, in effect reacting to the cavalry's charge, again IMHO though this is a moot point. You appear to advocate that having the last 10 men in a regiment being in contact with a target (for surely something like this is what is represented by a corner of a charging cavalry unit clipping ever so slightly the edge of a target unit) is as effective as the center of the entire unit crashing in. I disagree. In any event, since one of us surely is wrong concerning the rule and diagram on page 29, and since neither of us is likely to change our opinion on the basis of reasoned argument, I do hope that Terry chimes in with the official ruling on how this all was intended to work. That will be an end of it.

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by Saxonian » Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:02 am

If it is ruled that the centre of a charging unit must contact the target, would that mean that a small unit in tactical could never be contacted by two units (which are in edge contact with each other) directly to its front?
If this setup occurs:

.xx
yyzz

where yy and zz are touching each other (as they would be if they had moved as a brigade group for example), if one contacts xx (the . is spacer) with its centre, then by this definition the other would not be permitted to charge.
Is this the intention?

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by viperofmilan » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:29 am

Saxonian wrote:If it is ruled that the centre of a charging unit must contact the target, would that mean that a small unit in tactical could never be contacted by two units (which are in edge contact with each other) directly to its front?
If this setup occurs:

.xx
yyzz

where yy and zz are touching each other (as they would be if they had moved as a brigade group for example), if one contacts xx (the . is spacer) with its centre, then by this definition the other would not be permitted to charge.
Is this the intention?
Correct. But if ZZ charged XX, YY could move into a flank support position during the movement phase and contribute 2 dice to ZZ during the ensuing melee - not an insignificant contribution - or into a rear support position where it would add 1 die to ZZ and take 1 die away from XX.

Nobody is saying the center of the charging unit has to contact the target unit, only that it must be pointing at some part of the actual target unit. Again looking at the diagram on page 29, whether the charging unit wheels to point 2, to the position outlined for its final position, or to point 3, the actual center of the unit does not touch the target unit. But in all three positions the center of the charging unit is pointing at a part of the target unit. In effect, I suppose you might say, the center of gravity of the unit is pointing at the target of the charge.

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by Blathergut » Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:37 am

As to the question of order of charges in a case where a cavalry unit and an infantry unit are attempting a combined arms assault, since the cavalry unit charges without a CMT and the infantry must pass a CMT it is not unreasonable to conclude that the cavalry moves first as the infantry is, in effect reacting to the cavalry's charge, again IMHO though this is a moot point. You appear to advocate that having the last 10 men in a regiment being in contact with a target (for surely something like this is what is represented by a corner of a charging cavalry unit clipping ever so slightly the edge of a target unit) is as effective as the center of the entire unit crashing in.

1. Where in the rules does it state a cavalry unit charges before an infantry unit passing a CMT to charge same unit?

2. While on the game table it seems like a corner is all that is connecting, this would not be the actual case. We are constrained by rectangular bases. Actual troops would be in many more positions and areas. It signifies that the two units are in contact/combat but not exactly how they are doing this.

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by KendallB » Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:02 pm

It is within the rules for a charging unit that starts outside the frontal arc of the target unit to wheel so that the centre is pointing at one of the rear corners of the target unit. This is fulfilling the requirement as stated in the rules. When the charging unit moves forward, it will be clipping the flank of the target unit with one of its front corners. Totally legitimate.

With respect to which unit charges first, you declare all charges, roll for any CMTs if necessary then move units. The order the units move is up to the owning player.

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by bahdahbum » Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:37 pm

As an infantry unit mat not charge cavalry, I suppose the target was infantry . Being charged it would have to try to form square or decide not to. if it forms square, I suppose the cavalry would reasonably hit one of the front of the square :D .

Now the question is still interesting and I am very curious about Terry's answer ...well waiting for it .

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by Blathergut » Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:45 pm

Invariably, my French infantry fail to pass the test and join in the slaughter. Which leaves the cavalry to go it alone and usually bounce!

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by shadowdragon » Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:30 pm

viperofmilan wrote:since neither of us is likely to change our opinion on the basis of reasoned argument
I am sorry you feel that way, but you will have to speak for yourself. I am quite willing to change my mind. As I see ithe issue we have a rule with the sentence construct:

Do A or do B if doing A would case condition C. Plus we have a diagram illustrating A but not condition C and action B.

So far you say the rule says A so we must do A and the diagram agrees with doing A. No argument with doing A and that the diagram fully illustrates that. I've just been trying to understand how you interpret the "or do B if doing A would cause C" part of the rule. Perhaps you have explained that but I have missed it. Of course you don't have to do so. We will let terry speak.

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by BrettPT » Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:44 am

I've just been trying to understand how you interpret the "or do B if doing A would cause C" part of the rule. Perhaps you have explained that but I have missed it.
I think viper explained this above by saying "I'm not so sure there was intended to be an exception"
- however you are correct shadow, the exception exists and makes it crystal clear that you don't have to wheel if doing so would stop you contacting.

Under vipers interpretation, infantry would not be able to charge an opponent exactly 6mu away if the target was not in front of your centre (the slight wheel to line up would leave you short of distance to close). I can see this creating a situation where an enemy line of units can close to 6mu offset with yours and you wouldn't be able to assault them.

Cheers
Brett

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by bahdahbum » Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:39 am

I would agree with Brett .

pg 28 : First you have to consider if the unit may charge and the criterias are :
- You must be able to see the target unit ( did the infantry have a good line of sight ? )
- You must be able to reach it ( no mention of havingpart of the target in front the center of your unit )

pg 29 Wheeling during a charge :

It is stated that you MAY weel and only as far as necessary to place some part of the target in front of the center of the charging unit, or as far as possible if this would otherwise cause them to not reach their target.

Looking at the diagram,pg 29 , unit B "must" Wheel to point 2 . It is the only time the word "must" is used.

So my conclusion is that you must Wheel to try the "center" your assault, but only as far as possible not to cause you to not reach the target. If that means no Wheeling, so be it . You charge straightforward .

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by shadowdragon » Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:21 pm

BrettPT wrote:
I've just been trying to understand how you interpret the "or do B if doing A would cause C" part of the rule. Perhaps you have explained that but I have missed it.
I think viper explained this above by saying "I'm not so sure there was intended to be an exception"
- however you are correct shadow, the exception exists and makes it crystal clear that you don't have to wheel if doing so would stop you contacting.

Under vipers interpretation, infantry would not be able to charge an opponent exactly 6mu away if the target was not in front of your centre (the slight wheel to line up would leave you short of distance to close). I can see this creating a situation where an enemy line of units can close to 6mu offset with yours and you wouldn't be able to assault them.

Cheers
Brett
I see 3 basic situations where fully complying with wheeling so the centre line crosses so e part of the target:

1) as you describe - at long range where a wheel can leave the charger short of sufficient movement to close
2) wheeling would force the charge to cross slowing terrain leaving the charger short of movement
3) the charge is blocked by impassable terrain or another unit.

Perhaps the exception is meant to apply only for some these or perhaps all but as written it seems to be all.

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by Blathergut » Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:06 pm

We had a situation where a unit of cavalry wanted to charge with infantry in the way. The only way to successfully contact would have been to wheel past the centre point of the enemy target so that my horse could clear the infantry in between and hit the corner of the enemy. Dead. was dead-set against it since the rules state you can't wheel past the enemy centre point. :evil:

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by viperofmilan » Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:13 am

Blathergut wrote:We had a situation where a unit of cavalry wanted to charge with infantry in the way. The only way to successfully contact would have been to wheel past the centre point of the enemy target so that my horse could clear the infantry in between and hit the corner of the enemy. Dead. was dead-set against it since the rules state you can't wheel past the enemy centre point. :evil:
And Dead was correct.

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by Blathergut » Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:43 am

Well, it's kind of the same situation.

If, instead of angled 45 degrees facing left, as the unit was, it was in the same spot with the same conditions, facing 45 degrees to the right, it could wheel to the left and contact the enemy unit.

Why, given a certain positioning/facing, should it not be able to do this? It couldn't even see the enemy unit center.

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by deadtorius » Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:13 am

Most likely not as your other unit would still have been in the way. It was a matter or we were more or less facing each other head on, you had to swing out past my center to get past your other unit.

Personally I like these restrictions as there was a certain ridiculous ballet in FOG A/M V1 where you could thread the needle past enemies to sneak in an attack on a partially covered enemy. I think in most cases it would be hard to get that many men around an intervening enemy and most charges were likely more or less straight in affairs. I find this is the case most often in FOG N.

Based on the original question it seems the enemy was not blocked until the other friendly units charge would take them out front of one of the second chargers. Different situation. Does not sound like any wheel was needed to line up on the enemy in the first place, in this case wheeling would have blocked the potential charge from contacting the target.

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Re: Charging question from Cold Wars

Post by Blathergut » Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:34 am

The situation was basically this: (spacing is not accurate)

Image

I'm not arguing that the charge should have been allowed. I get that it goes against the wheeling condition re: enemy unit center point. But it is a bit odd. If the French cavalry instead was angled to the right the same amount, it could wheel left and hit the Russian unit. Is it not a bit odd that it can't wheel right and do the same? Just pointing out an unusual situation.

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