Two Questions about mounted

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Amra
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Two Questions about mounted

Post by Amra » Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:20 am

Hi All ,

If a LC unit routs when in a single line ( ie in skirmish ) , do other units in range test ? I thought this only applied to Cossacks and the like but in a game it was argued it applied to all LC skirmishing . If so , its a splendid piece of cheese .

Can a mounted unit be spent from shooting ,other than close range ? The definition of "spent" says simply "shooting" which causes 4 hits , but elsewhere it just talks about close range .

Sorry if these have come up before , I couldn't find them

Blathergut
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Re: Two Questions about mounted

Post by Blathergut » Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:41 pm

1. Testing for seeing routers:

Page 70 (Other Cohesion Tests Chart): if within 4MU of non-skirmishing cavalry at the time they break

but

QRS (latest 13-01): if within 4MU of non-irregular cavalry at the time they break

Anyone know if this has been addressed/commented upon?


2. Spent, as far as I know, can be inflicted at any distance. Dead. and I recently had Russian artillery pounding at long range on some French cuirassiers, giving them 4 hits in one round of shooting!

deadtorius
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Re: Two Questions about mounted

Post by deadtorius » Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:09 pm

page 69 top left under Sent Units: "A cavalry unit only may will also become spent if it takes 4 hits from shooting....."
Does not say anything about range so any range shooting that causes 4 hits will make a cavalry unit "spent"
The original reference you saw is under shooting where it does state close range as defensive fire against assaulting cavalry can cause a unit to spent. Even if they are far afield smelling the flowers the mounted boys can become spent from lucky artillery shooting.

KeefM
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Re: Two Questions about mounted

Post by KeefM » Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:52 am

So ... should we ignore the shooting section altogether which provides an exact and specific instance in which cavalry become spent from 4 hits vs the recovery section which makes it apply to all instances when cavalry take 4 hits ?

And if we go with the the latter view then why is the former even mentioned at all (cos it would simply just apply all the time in every circumstance and therefore doesn't need a mention) ?

These are two mutually exclusive rules; both are very clear and yet both can't be right.

Terry, which is it ? Do 4 hits from shooting always spend cavalry ? Or only at at close range when assaulting ?

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Re: Two Questions about mounted

Post by viperofmilan » Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:22 pm

KeefM wrote:So ... should we ignore the shooting section altogether which provides an exact and specific instance in which cavalry become spent from 4 hits vs the recovery section which makes it apply to all instances when cavalry take 4 hits ?

And if we go with the the latter view then why is the former even mentioned at all (cos it would simply just apply all the time in every circumstance and therefore doesn't need a mention) ?

These are two mutually exclusive rules; both are very clear and yet both can't be right.

Terry, which is it ? Do 4 hits from shooting always spend cavalry ? Or only at at close range when assaulting ?
Again, in our local Maryland group, cavalry can only become spent from 4 hits from firing at close range. This generally, but not always is a consequence of an ill-advised or particularyly unlucky assault attempt by the cavalry. Medium- and long-range fire can cause outcome moves, but cannot spend the cavalry unit.

Kevin

Kevin

hazelbark
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Re: Two Questions about mounted

Post by hazelbark » Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:16 pm

KeefM wrote:So ... should we ignore the shooting section altogether which provides an exact and specific instance in which cavalry become spent from 4 hits vs the recovery section which makes it apply to all instances when cavalry take 4 hits ?

And if we go with the the latter view then why is the former even mentioned at all (cos it would simply just apply all the time in every circumstance and therefore doesn't need a mention) ?

These are two mutually exclusive rules; both are very clear and yet both can't be right.

Terry, which is it ? Do 4 hits from shooting always spend cavalry ? Or only at at close range when assaulting ?
Good question.

terrys
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Re: Two Questions about mounted

Post by terrys » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:02 am

page 69 top left under Sent Units: "A cavalry unit only may will also become spent if it takes 4 hits from shooting....."
Does not say anything about range so any range shooting that causes 4 hits will make a cavalry unit "spent"
The original reference you saw is under shooting where it does state close range as defensive fire against assaulting cavalry can cause a unit to spent. Even if they are far afield smelling the flowers the mounted boys can become spent from lucky artillery shooting.
There is a missing entry on page 69 - "during an assault" should be added after 'shooting'.
The 2nd bullet on page 55 is the only one that is relevant: "A cavalry unit receiving 4 hits from close range during an assault move becomes spent"
I'll make a note of that for the next errata.

Spent cavalry is supposed to reflect that the horses are tired. We decided that in general, an assault that didn't make it into combat was called off before the horses became too tired. However, we also conceded that there were instances when the charge wasn't stopped in time - and the 4 hits represents this.
4 hits at other times may well disorder the cavalry but certainly wouldn't tire the horses.

richafricanus
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Re: Two Questions about mounted

Post by richafricanus » Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:48 pm

Okay that's cleared that up. What about the first part of Amra's question. Do you only not test for seeing irreg cav rout or any light cav skirmishers?

terrys
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Re: Two Questions about mounted

Post by terrys » Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:53 pm

Okay that's cleared that up. What about the first part of Amra's question. Do you only not test for seeing irreg cav rout or any light cav skirmishers?
'Regular' Light cavalry in single line are not skirmishers - They behave as if skirmishers in some circumstances (like evading).
If they break other units within 4MU will have to take a CT as normal.

Note that irregular light cavalry cannot give rear support to other units, but 'regular' light cavalry in single rank can.

Saxonian
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Re: Two Questions about mounted

Post by Saxonian » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:07 am

terrys wrote:
Okay that's cleared that up. What about the first part of Amra's question. Do you only not test for seeing irreg cav rout or any light cav skirmishers?
'Regular' Light cavalry in single line are not skirmishers - They behave as if skirmishers in some circumstances (like evading).
If they break other units within 4MU will have to take a CT as normal.

Note that irregular light cavalry cannot give rear support to other units, but 'regular' light cavalry in single rank can.
:shock:
That last line is a bit of a surprise.
Rear support from infantry skirmishers is explicitly forbidden, but the next bullet where the rules for cavalry are explained simply says that only cav can rear support other cav - no mention of skirmishers or irregulars. We have taken this as a deliberate omission, and played that cav of any type or formation can give rear support.
Certainly gave the Cossacks an extra string to their bow!

terrys
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Re: Two Questions about mounted

Post by terrys » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:35 am

That last line is a bit of a surprise.
Rear support from infantry skirmishers is explicitly forbidden, but the next bullet where the rules for cavalry are explained simply says that only cav can rear support other cav - no mention of skirmishers or irregulars. We have taken this as a deliberate omission, and played that cav of any type or formation can give rear support.
Certainly gave the Cossacks an extra string to their bow!
My mistake - Please ignore that note.
It's only infantry skirmishers and artillery that don't give rear support.
> Cavalry skirmishers CAN give rear support to other cavalry.

richafricanus
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Re: Two Questions about mounted

Post by richafricanus » Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:28 am

Carries on painting third unit of Cossacks with relieved look on face... :roll:

KeefM
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Re: Two Questions about mounted

Post by KeefM » Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:59 am

Double "phew" ...

terrys
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Re: Two Questions about mounted

Post by terrys » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:09 am

Yeah - Sorry about that - Something in my mind remembered that skirmishers don't give rear support - as opposed to 'Infantry' skirmishers.
Note to self - Check the rules before adding replying to rules questions.

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