defensive shooting

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deadtorius
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defensive shooting

Post by deadtorius » Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:41 am

In today's game I had a unit of Austrian grenadiers that were charged by a unit of French. Right beside them touching base edges but about 1 Mu or so back was a unit of line infantry. The French charge to contact would have brought them to within 2 Mu of the line infantry, but when the grenadiers shoot at 2 Mu the French would be more than 2 Mu from the line infantry.

As it happened the French were stopped at2 Mu from the grenadiers. If the French had a CP to continue the charge in would the line infantry still shoot when the French get within 2 Mu?

Saxonian
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Re: defensive shooting

Post by Saxonian » Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:38 pm

My understanding was that who shoots is determined as if the assaulting unit actually makes it into contact with its target.
The halting at 2MU is a rule mechanism, and not the actual point at which the firing takes place.
Otherwise, a unit that is assaulting from an angle could technically be outside the target's arc of fire when it stops at 2MU.
So, based on this, I think your line infantry and your grenadiers would both have shot at the same time.

deadtorius
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Re: defensive shooting

Post by deadtorius » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:16 am

Good point and you are probably right.
Thanks for your input.

viperofmilan
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Re: defensive shooting

Post by viperofmilan » Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:25 am

Saxonian wrote:My understanding was that who shoots is determined as if the assaulting unit actually makes it into contact with its target.
The halting at 2MU is a rule mechanism, and not the actual point at which the firing takes place.
Otherwise, a unit that is assaulting from an angle could technically be outside the target's arc of fire when it stops at 2MU.
So, based on this, I think your line infantry and your grenadiers would both have shot at the same time.
That is my understanding also.

Kevin

deadtorius
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Re: defensive shooting

Post by deadtorius » Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:12 am

I named to stop the frogs before they got there as it was, but I am sure a few veteran dice would have sent them packing.

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Re: defensive shooting

Post by hazelbark » Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:05 pm

viperofmilan wrote:
Saxonian wrote:My understanding was that who shoots is determined as if the assaulting unit actually makes it into contact with its target.
The halting at 2MU is a rule mechanism, and not the actual point at which the firing takes place.
Otherwise, a unit that is assaulting from an angle could technically be outside the target's arc of fire when it stops at 2MU.
So, based on this, I think your line infantry and your grenadiers would both have shot at the same time.
That is my understanding also.

Kevin
The good news is you are both right in your understanding. :D

SirGarnet
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Re: defensive shooting

Post by SirGarnet » Fri May 02, 2014 8:12 am

Helpful quotes:

"Other than artillery firing as above, the only firing allowed during the assault phase is at close range and only at assaulting units." p32 "Defensive Fire" Terry in a long-past post (#32891) commented that all who can shoot may shoot.

This page and the sequence of play on page 24 indicate the movement to 2 MU is a mechanic - firing is at close range.

terrys
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Re: defensive shooting

Post by terrys » Fri May 02, 2014 11:36 am

There is also another mechanic that is not documented but should be followed:

> Each unit capable of firing at the assaulting unit fires in turn as it passes within 2Mu of their front.
> Any unit which can only fire before the assaulting unit gets to close range of its target must fire separately.
> Hits are accumulated as the unit moves along its assault path.
> At the point where the assaulting unit receives it's first hit (or 2nd for large or superior units) it must take a CMT to continue.
> At the point where the assaulting unit has accumulated 3 hits it MUST retire.
> It may never get to close range of it's intended target if it's assault passes the front of other units.

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Re: defensive shooting

Post by KendallB » Sat May 03, 2014 8:17 am

So if a charge on a wavering unit is stopped by fire from other units, will the wavering unit still need to perform a CMT? It sounds similar to intercept charges.

deadtorius
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Re: defensive shooting

Post by deadtorius » Sat May 03, 2014 12:48 pm

I believe only intercepts will cancel the test.
In the case of a wavering unit the test is taken before the assaulters start to move so defensive fire has not had a chance to stop them yet.
If the wavering unit passes the test they can breathe a sigh of relief that the enemy got stopped too far out to be a threat.

terrys
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Re: defensive shooting

Post by terrys » Sat May 03, 2014 3:16 pm

So if a charge on a wavering unit is stopped by fire from other units, will the wavering unit still need to perform a CMT? It sounds similar to intercept charges.
deadtorius is correct - Tests for for wavering units being charged are taken before the firing is resolved.

deadtorius
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Re: defensive shooting

Post by deadtorius » Sat May 03, 2014 3:38 pm

:D

Russ1664
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Re: defensive shooting

Post by Russ1664 » Fri May 23, 2014 1:06 pm

Terry's additional words are really useful many thanks.

Though I am unclear what happens if the target of the assault has no fire dice e.g If the target of the assault evades or forms square, facing the wrong way etc. The prerequisite mentioned on page 51, supporting fire para contains the phase "may add extra dice to the fire of the friendly unit which is firing...." implies the target of the charge must shoot (or will be shooting) for other units to add their supporting fire dice? Terry's additional words imply that supporting fire may be performed independently of the target fire. This could be interpreted as the charged unit firing with zero dice to which support dice can then be added? If so can this be done at any point during the charge?

My apologies, I've unable to find the "long post" mentioned previously which may have answered my query.

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Re: defensive shooting

Post by MCorbett » Fri May 23, 2014 1:46 pm

I'm interested in understanding this better also. In a game last night my opponent charged my disordered cavalry with his own cavalry. In doing so his cavalry swept past a unit of my infantry in square - well within two inches. We looked up rules and concluded the infantry could not fire because there were no firing dice that could be added to.

deadtorius
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Re: defensive shooting

Post by deadtorius » Fri May 23, 2014 4:35 pm

Any unit the chargers pass within 2Mu of may shoot at the charging unit. Keep in mind that only the target unit hits on 4's, all other shooting needs 5's. I imagine this applies to sort dice as well.
In order for support shooting the chargers have to enter the support area of the adjacent friends, this is different than passing another unit close to the charge path. U would say in the case of the target not shooting, there is no support shooting, how do you support something that does not shoot itself?
Terry might have to wade in on this one.

So in the case of that cav charge, if they had passed within 2 Mu of the square they could have been shoot at with a base hit number of 5, and likely a - POA for flank shooting. If the cav took a hit from the square and could not close, no command points or failed CMT, they would stop at the point the square shot at them. Assuming the square was the first unit to fire at them.

This means you might be stopped further out than 2 Mu from your target.

terrys
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Re: defensive shooting

Post by terrys » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:48 pm

So in the case of that cav charge, if they had passed within 2 Mu of the square they could have been shoot at with a base hit number of 5, and likely a - POA for flank shooting. If the cav took a hit from the square and could not close, no command points or failed CMT, they would stop at the point the square shot at them. Assuming the square was the first unit to fire at them.
This is mostly correct - except that the firers only get a POA for firing on a flank if the target was presenting their flank before they started their charge.
If the square causes a hit, the cavalry would either have to pass a CMT to continue or the charge would stop and the cavalry would retire to 3MU from the square.

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