use of command points and generals

Moderators: hammy, Blathergut, terrys, Slitherine Core

Post Reply
bahdahbum
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Posts: 1950
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:40 pm

use of command points and generals

Post by bahdahbum » Sun May 11, 2014 4:48 pm

During a game we found out that we had different interpretation of how and when use CP and generals.

A unit who wishes to make a complex move has to receive a CP and so be in range of the divisional commander , usually 8 MU .

So here are the questions :

We suppose the unit makes the test at the moment it makes the move, after a first move if it wishes to make a second move, or when it wants to start moving backwards etc...

Now, what about the divisional leader . May the divisionnal commander stay, give a CP to a unit, move up to his movement limit and then be used to give a CP point to order a complex move to another unit or do we have to consider the starting point of the general for all use of CP ?

MikeHorah
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Posts: 271
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:57 pm

Re: use of command points and generals

Post by MikeHorah » Sun May 11, 2014 6:30 pm

Since we don't specify the order in which units may be moved including commanders I see no reason why you cannot use a CP for a CMT, move and then use another. Given the theoretical length of a turn that seems credible and the CPs are a kind of extension of the command reach anyway. It fits with the top down model design. Terry have you encountered this and taken a different view?

Blathergut
Field Marshal - Elefant
Field Marshal - Elefant
Posts: 5734
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:44 am
Location: Southern Ontario, Canada

Re: use of command points and generals

Post by Blathergut » Sun May 11, 2014 6:33 pm

We have always used the starting point of the general. If the alternative is possible, a comment from Terry would be nice.

bahdahbum
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Posts: 1950
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:40 pm

Re: use of command points and generals

Post by bahdahbum » Sun May 11, 2014 7:47 pm

So the question is not that stupid :D

Terry could we have your point of view

Saxonian
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 251/1
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz  251/1
Posts: 130
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:00 am

Re: use of command points and generals

Post by Saxonian » Mon May 12, 2014 4:08 am

Haven't got the rules in front of me, but I'm pretty sure it is in there that whether or not a unit is in command is established at the start of a phase, before anything has moved/happened.
So a unit of light cav can start at 8MU, move once so it is then at 18MU and then take a CMT on one command point to move again - because it was in command at the start of the movement phase.
The same with an assault - infantry (for instance) start at 8MU, charge forward to be at 12MU and take defensive fire - only one CP to take the CMT to close.

Conversely, if a unit starts a phase outside of command range, it will take two CP to take a CMT even if its first move brings it closer to its div commander.

**EDIT**
Last bullet point p46 onto p47:
"The position of a unit before movement is used when checking if it is within command range of its Division Commander. It does not re-measure if it makes a second move."
We have taken "before movement" to mean before any movement.

MikeHorah
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Posts: 271
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:57 pm

Re: use of command points and generals

Post by MikeHorah » Mon May 12, 2014 11:09 am

Just shows how little I know my own ( sic) rules :roll: Stick to lists in future! Ignore my blathering guys. :lol:

BrettPT
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1266
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:52 am
Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: use of command points and generals

Post by BrettPT » Thu May 15, 2014 10:23 am

That's interesting.

We go the other way, "...interpreting the position of a unit before movement ..." as referring to a specific unit moving.
The subject of the sentence - to my reading - is "a" unit checking its range and 'a' unit moving.

We check command radius when picking up a particular unit and moving it. If in was in range before it moved, it stays in range for any 2nd move or charge home CMT.
After you have finished with that unit, there is nothing to stop you moving your DC (assuming he wasn't attached to the first unit) to place another unit in command before that unit is moved.

Cheers
Brett

bahdahbum
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Posts: 1950
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:40 pm

Re: use of command points and generals

Post by bahdahbum » Thu May 15, 2014 5:44 pm

For simplicity sake, I think that checking is easier at the beginning of the phase . If you start moving your general "part-time" in order to move around the field and be able to give orders to many units, you will have to take note of the general's movement ...it will complicate thngs .

Another way to interpret it is that at the start of the phase is that the general sends his orders here and there and moves afterwards in order to check things .

But , if Terry could tell us what he meant , it would be simpler .

SirGarnet
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Posts: 2186
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:13 am

Re: use of command points and generals

Post by SirGarnet » Thu May 15, 2014 6:40 pm

P46-47 "The position of a unit before movement is used when checking if it within the command range of its Division Commander. IT does not re-measure if it maks a 2nd move."

I was easily persuaded by the choice of the unmodified word "movement" which both refers to movement universally and is the name of the movement phase (not manoeuvre phase, in this game). I am also swayed by the bad game effects and time-consuming nature of meticulous measurement, placement and pre-planned sequencing of moves by affected units in order to optimize commander usage, as well as the greater dispersion of effective control allowed by riding back and forth turn by turn (the kind of mechanic which gets mocked).

As a matter of game design, the other player's Joint Action Phase is already available for moving commanders in preparation for the next turn's assault and movement, which allows very swift determination of which units are in range.


On the English side, "a unit before movement" are words carefully chosen and about the best available short of "a unit at the start of the movement phase" which inevitably would have/may have been edited down for the usual page count reasons.

The words are a terribly sloppy choice if the checkpoint is when the particular unit starts its move - much better words come naturally:

"a unit before it moves" (fewer letters used) or even "a unit before its movement"

and there are of course formulations such as "a unit before moving" that would have been openly ambiguous.

BrettPT
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1266
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:52 am
Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: use of command points and generals

Post by BrettPT » Fri May 16, 2014 2:16 am

[quote="bahdahbum"] If you start moving your general "part-time" in order to move around the field and be able to give orders to many units, you will have to take note of the general's movement /quote]

Not really, as like a unit Generals can only move once. When you have finished moving the commander that's him done for the phase.
I would think that measuring who is in/out before moving any units would actually be more time/memory consuming.

Say the DC is attached and accompanies the 1st unit you move. When moving a later unit, you would have to remember (and have measured) whether the General was within 4MU of it at the start of the bound, before he moved off with a previous unit. I could see this creating a situation where the opponent says "was you DC originally in range to do that?" - to which you couldn't answer unless you had of measured at the start of the movement bound.

Cheers
Brett

Blathergut
Field Marshal - Elefant
Field Marshal - Elefant
Posts: 5734
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:44 am
Location: Southern Ontario, Canada

Re: use of command points and generals

Post by Blathergut » Fri May 16, 2014 4:57 pm

We have always used the 'start of the movement phase' but it does make sense to simply measure at the moment of movement. We can try this next time to see if it makes much difference.

terrys
Panzer Corps Team
Panzer Corps Team
Posts: 4188
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:53 am

Re: use of command points and generals

Post by terrys » Sun Jun 08, 2014 2:53 pm

A unit measures the distance to it's DC for CP purposes at the beginning of its move. (it's first move if making a double move).
A DC can spend his CPs before and/or after he moves.

hazelbark
General - Carrier
General - Carrier
Posts: 4957
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:53 pm
Location: Capital of the World !!

Re: use of command points and generals

Post by hazelbark » Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:01 pm

terrys wrote:A unit measures the distance to it's DC for CP purposes at the beginning of its move. (it's first move if making a double move).
A DC can spend his CPs before and/or after he moves.
"its" here refers to the unit about to move.

So a DC can spend a CP on someone in range. Then move to within range of someone else and spend another CP. Yes?

terrys
Panzer Corps Team
Panzer Corps Team
Posts: 4188
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:53 am

Re: use of command points and generals

Post by terrys » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:09 pm

So a DC can spend a CP on someone in range. Then move to within range of someone else and spend another CP. Yes?
Yes

Amra
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 251/1
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz  251/1
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:59 pm

Re: use of command points and generals

Post by Amra » Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:18 am

Interesting , makes Generals who are better than competent a bit more useful

Post Reply

Return to “Rules Questions”