1812 Saxon List

Moderators: hammy, terrys, Blathergut, Slitherine Core

Post Reply
BrettPT
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1264
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:52 am
Location: Auckland, NZ

1812 Saxon List

Post by BrettPT » Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:07 am

This list says that "Shock Cavalry must be in their own division."
There are 2 units of shock cavalry in that list.

Does 'own division' mean that:

(a) no other troops can be included in this division (ie a horse artillery and/or LC unit);

or does it mean

(b) you must group all shock cavalry selected into their own same division, however this does preclude also adding aditional units to that division

Interpretation (a) requires both shock units to be fielded (or none). The points cost of this makes the 1812 list quite restrictive at 800 points.
(b) is a more flexible interpretation that allows a few more options when constructing a list.

Views?

Cheers
Brett

Scruff
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 79
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:30 pm
Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Re: 1812 Saxon List

Post by Scruff » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:56 am

No idea lol, but I would use history as my guide. How were they brigaded in 1812?

cheers

KendallB
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Posts: 416
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:01 pm
Location: North Shore, New Zealand

Re: 1812 Saxon List

Post by KendallB » Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:03 am

I used option b when I fielded my Saxons. IIRC historically the Saxon cavalry was in their own division before the heavies were detached to the 3Rd(?) Cavalry corps. This had both heavies and lights in it, plus the horse artillery.

I would say that you can have a single cavalry division with up to two heavy units, additional light units andand a horse artillery.

BrettPT
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1264
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:52 am
Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: 1812 Saxon List

Post by BrettPT » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:23 am

Did a little research.

2 Saxon HC regiments (Garde du Corps & Zastrow - the other 2 stayed at home) were with IV Cavalry Corps as part of 7th HC Division. The other units in the 7th were 2 regiments of Westphalian Cuirassiers, a couple of squadrons of Polish Cuirassiers, plus a battery of each of Saxon and Westphalian Horse Artillery.

VII (Saxon) Corps contained the lancers, a chevaux leger regiment and, according to some OOBs, the Hussars.
Other Saxon LC regiments were with III Cavalry Corps and IX Corps.

Not sure where that leads us. Certainly there is a historically based argument to say that a division containing Saxon shock cavalry should not contain other Saxon LC.
That said, a historically based list should probably not include any Saxon HC at all - they were with the main central army miles away from VII Corps on the southern flank. In any case a Saxon HC division modelled on 7th HC should be allowed a horse artillery unit, and probably some Westphalian Cuirassiers.

In game balance terms, it seems a little harsh not to allow a LC unit in a Saxon HC division. Most lists allow this even where it may have been a-historical.
Given the list is designed to allow a Saxon 'national' army to be fielded as well as the historical VII Corps, maybe a generous interpretation should be adopted here?

Cheers
Brett

KendallB
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Posts: 416
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:01 pm
Location: North Shore, New Zealand

Re: 1812 Saxon List

Post by KendallB » Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:29 pm

The Saxon heavies were reassigned when Napoleon formed the cavalry corps. Prior to this they were intended to operate with their infantry much like in 1809. Considering the number of hypothetical lists possible, I'd still feel happy about fielding a cavalry division of 2 shock HC and 1 LC plus a horse battery.

sonic
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:20 pm

Re: 1812 Saxon List

Post by sonic » Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:43 am

Just a more general related topic on army lists. Where it says 1 attachment per division does that mean if you have 3 divisions you can field the attachments all three in one division, or do they have to be in each division. I could assume couldn't I that if they meant 1 in each division they would have worded it to say that? It applies to each of the skirmisher, officer, artillery and cavalry attachments, 1 per division.

KendallB
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Posts: 416
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:01 pm
Location: North Shore, New Zealand

Re: 1812 Saxon List

Post by KendallB » Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:49 pm

You get one of each per division which is awesome as there are no restriction about which units can get them apart from the usual ones from the rules.

sonic
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:20 pm

Re: 1812 Saxon List

Post by sonic » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:30 pm

Yes, understand that but say I had 3 divisions, does that mean I could put the 3 skirmisher attachements I am allowed into 1 division for example? That was my question.

BrettPT
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1264
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:52 am
Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: 1812 Saxon List

Post by BrettPT » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:33 pm

The phrase is ambiguous, however I have always read "1 per division" to mean that each division can only contain 1.

This is made clearer in some lists, ie Portuguese 1809 "up to one per division or two in a division with no light infantry", or Austrian army of Italy 1805 "up to two per division, or one if the division contains an artillery unit".

Kendall, what you are saying I think is that the Saxon list doesn't restrict which units in a division can have the attachments, unlike some lists.

Cheers
Brett

KendallB
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Posts: 416
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:01 pm
Location: North Shore, New Zealand

Re: 1812 Saxon List

Post by KendallB » Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:20 pm

Apart from the usual restrictions like skirmishers can't be attached to light infantry and cavalry plus artillery won't be able to have any as per the rules, there are no other restrictions.

Therefore for the Saxons and their three divisions:
Up to 1 x mixed division - 1 x officer, 1 x artillery for non-artillery units; 1 x skirmisher for a line infantry; 1 x cavalry for line or light infantry unit.
Up to 3 x infantry division - as above.
Up to 1 x cavalry division - 1 x officer, 1 x artillery for any cavalry unit.

sonic
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:20 pm

Re: 1812 Saxon List

Post by sonic » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:32 am

Thanks for that Kendall. Two questions.
One - you haven't shown what Brett was asking and what I was asking in your example. Can a single Saxon division from an army of 3 divisions have 3 skirmisher attachments for example for say 3 units that belong to that division. Could I have for example 3 art attachments to one art battery in the division?
A second question however, u said that according to the rules that artillery can't have artillery attachments. Is there an amendment I don't know of, cause p89 specifically provides for artillery as attachments to artillery.

KitG
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:51 am

Re: 1812 Saxon List

Post by KitG » Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:00 am

Nah sonic, what Kendall is trying to tell you is that each division can only have a MAXIMUM of one tpye of attachment each - that means you can't combine all 3 of the skirmisher attachments you have in your army and give them to one division.

What Brett is saying is that the phrase 'one per division' may be open to question, in that this may refer to permitting you to have one attachment per division (say a skirmisher attachment) and then if you have three divisions in your army then you can purchase three skirmish attachments, but does this mean thet you can then allocate them to a single division?

We at North Shore have always had the phrase 'one per division' to mean that each division is allowed one of those types of attachment and no more. By all means have three skirmisher attachments in your army, but allocate them one to each infantry division so that each division will end up with one skirmisher attachment in one of its units and no more.

sonic
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:20 pm

Re: 1812 Saxon List

Post by sonic » Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:12 am

Fair enough call, but the plot thickens, you legal people should know all that, need to get the waffenfarbe right. If I had 2 inf and one cav division, does that mean I could only get 2 skirmisher attachments? See the quandary?

KendallB
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Posts: 416
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:01 pm
Location: North Shore, New Zealand

Re: 1812 Saxon List

Post by KendallB » Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:38 am

Yes, one skirmisher per division max. So if you have a cav division you will only have 2 in the army.

KitG
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:51 am

Re: 1812 Saxon List

Post by KitG » Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:34 am

by sonic » Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:12 am

Fair enough call, but the plot thickens, you legal people should know all that, need to get the waffenfarbe right. If I had 2 inf and one cav division, does that mean I could only get 2 skirmisher attachments? See the quandary?

Yep - but is it really a quandary? I mean if you have two infantry divisions and one cavalry division in your army and you purchase three skirmisher attachments where does the third skirmisher attachment get allocated? As the infantry divisions can only have one skirmisher attachment each and a cavalry unit cannot have a skirmish attachment, then the only reason to purchase three skirmisher attachments in this instance is to waste 8 points.

deadtorius
General - Elite King Tiger
General - Elite King Tiger
Posts: 4173
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:41 am

Re: 1812 Saxon List

Post by deadtorius » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:14 am

Easy solution for your army, only buy 2 skirmishers, you can't use a third one anyway. If you are 8points under so be it.

Post Reply

Return to “Scenarios, AAR's, Lists, Modelling and more”