Russian Cavalry Lists 1812-1815

Moderators: hammy, terrys, Blathergut, Slitherine Core

Post Reply
pugsville
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Posts: 223
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:42 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Russian Cavalry Lists 1812-1815

Post by pugsville » Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:59 am

I been looking at Russians list with strong cavalry forces. By Strong I mean shock and/or guard, I'd like some cheaper cavalry, preferably some cossacks (great for holding up and delaying and harassing) and ideally some horse guns.

Russian 1813-14 Infantry Corps list has large minimums and if you take Cavalry division from another list you cant take any cavalry in the main list. These limitations make it hard to get a force that meets my requirements, If you take the reserve cavalry corps there is no cheap cavalry it's ALL guard or shock.

Russian 1813-14 Grenadier Corps is more flexible (2 divisions from a number of lists are allowed) and you have some cossacks available in the main list. Still high minimums in terms of costs.

Russian 1813-14 Cavalry Corps/Reserve Cavalry Corps - complete non starter. No divisions from other lists, no infantry what so ever, while nice cavalry list too restricted for my tastes.

Russian 1813-14 Guard Corps. Has own cossacks, but high cost units. Can take Division from another lists, and can take only 1 division from it's list but 2 division lists are not attractive.

Russian 1812 Infantry Corps low minimums, some inflexibility in division structure (at least 3 infantry units and 1 artillery in ALL infantry and mixed divisions) but a list well suited for taking one infantry divisions (endless artillery attachments, multiple light infantry unlike other Russian lists) unfortunately you need to take 3 artillery bases in medium or heavy means the 1 inf div, 1 cav div and 1 guard/shock structure means taking a large artillery unit in the infantry division, which I generally dont like (I like veteran guns and with a large unit it costs) but overall I find this structure looks quite workable. The Division taken from the Guards division having no minimums is quite flexible too.

inf div -
small inf a/d art attach
small inf a/d art attach
small inf a/c
small light inf a/d
large med art a/v officer

cav div
small a/d LC
small a/i LC
small a/i LC
small a/d horse art officer
(horse art with officer can go off with Guard cavalry to support, Cossacks delay on the other flank, could move 1 Cossack to infantry div and give officer instead of art unit in that div for more flexible Cossack delayers)

Guards Cav Div
small s/v guard LC art attach, officer attarch
small s/d guard LC lances art attach
small s/d guard Shock HC

(and alternative Crurassier div from Cavalry Corps with 4 Shocks or 3 shocks and horse art is doable )


The 1812 Cavalry Division can have an division from infantry 1812 corps is also good. But if you take horse artillery the cavalry cannot have art attachments (which I quite like) but plenty of Shocks and can take up to 2 guard shocks. And the Horse art can be with the good cavalry.

Crurassier Div
small a/d Shock HC officer att
small a/d Shock HC
small s/d Shock Guard HC
small s/d Shock Guard HC
small s/d horse art

Cav Div
small a/d LC
small a/d LC
small a/i LC officer
small a/i LC
(Cossack gets officer for ind-pendant operation delaying somewhere)

Inf div
small a/d inf art att
small a/d inf art att
small a/d light inf
small a/v med art officer

deadtorius
General - Elite King Tiger
General - Elite King Tiger
Posts: 4173
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:41 am

Re: Russian Cavalry Lists 1812-1815

Post by deadtorius » Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:28 pm

Do Cossacks actually need an officer? They can move like skirmishing infantry, full moves straight forward and back, 1/2 move any other direction. So up to 5 Mu sideways for example. I would think the reg LC would need an officer.
Just starting my own Russians, have lots of inf and 1 Cossack unit so far, need the cav and that mandatory horse battery which I will be ordering soon, so not too familiar with cossacks yet.

pugsville
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Posts: 223
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:42 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Russian Cavalry Lists 1812-1815

Post by pugsville » Sat Aug 23, 2014 1:50 am

A unit with an Officer can quite happily operate away from the rest of it's division it's get it's own internal command point and can recover. Cossacks with their own officer are even more slippery and can recover. In these cavalry heavy lists the Cossacks job is delay on the weaker flank to stop quick movement of the enemy forces.

KendallB
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Posts: 416
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:01 pm
Location: North Shore, New Zealand

Re: Russian Cavalry Lists 1812-1815

Post by KendallB » Sat Aug 23, 2014 3:59 am

Plus the officer lets the Cossack do something clever 50% of the time with its single die and doesn't cost the DC any CPs.

bahdahbum
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Posts: 1950
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:40 pm

Re: Russian Cavalry Lists 1812-1815

Post by bahdahbum » Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:37 pm

I do not have my TON with me but look at the 1812 army lists . I met a russian cavalry corps 1812 . The list Terry used at "The Worlds" . There was heavy cavalry, guard heavy cavalry, cossacks, one infantry division ....

KeefM
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Posts: 274
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:08 am

Re: Russian Cavalry Lists 1812-1815

Post by KeefM » Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:14 pm

That'd make for a small army overall ? The guards ain't cheap.

JJMicromegas
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:07 pm

Re: Russian Cavalry Lists 1812-1815

Post by JJMicromegas » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:06 pm

I am also considering building a 1812 Russian cavalry list, and I wanted to know why most lists I see put Shock Cavalry in small units rather than large? I have 12 bases of Cuirassiers and I am debating whether I should put them into three small or two large units (or some combination thereof making use of attachments).

Is it because they become spent after the first combat and therefore it is not worth spending all those points on one unit that is going to become spent anyway? On the other hand they will have a better chance of charging home if they are faced with defensive fire.

Thanks.

MDH
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Posts: 198
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:00 pm

Re: Russian Cavalry Lists 1812-1815

Post by MDH » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:11 pm

JJMicromegas wrote:I am also considering building a 1812 Russian cavalry list, and I wanted to know why most lists I see put Shock Cavalry in small units rather than large? I have 12 bases of Cuirassiers and I am debating whether I should put them into three small or two large units (or some combination thereof making use of attachments).

Is it because they become spent after the first combat and therefore it is not worth spending all those points on one unit that is going to become spent anyway? On the other hand they will have a better chance of charging home if they are faced with defensive fire.

Thanks.
A large shock cavalry unit is probably one of the most powerful units you can have especially if it is superior or veteran and or you put a commander with it .

A single one virtually destroyed a mixed division on its own in a big game we did recently . It was average veteran shock with a commander so ignored first hit, self rallied with its commanders, and throwing three dice, and self rear supporting .Even charging it in flank had little net impact . It was as they say " awesome" in the proper meaning of the word. Like Kellerman at Marengo :shock: . As the game designer I felt I had been too generous! :roll:

We will only have allowed a large shock cavalry unit in a list ( and indeed other good quality large units for the most part) where we had clear evidence to support that in an order or battle - either an actual battle of a campaign order of battle - where we had data on unit numbers so that option is not that common with this type of cavalry . We don't see toggling between 12bases in 2x6 or in 3x4 as a standard option to build in.

An example where we did it is the Household Cavalry brigade at Waterloo where the list allows 8 bases but within that a 6 base unit - so 2x4 or 1x6. That is because the Dragoon Guards , who were brigaded with the Horse Guards was the singe largest cavalry regiment in the whole battle in any army - when you look at the data - and larger than the vast majority of infantry formations as well. So on that score the most powerful single cavalry unit there . We allowed them all to be guards too because on that day, in that place ,they performed in a way indistinguishable from the Horse Guards.

pugsville
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Posts: 223
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:42 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Russian Cavalry Lists 1812-1815

Post by pugsville » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:56 pm

Guard and Shock cavalry can be quite effective even when spent, (though recovering to steady is important). Large units are effective, but it's all a points balance. You cant have everything.

Cavalry even the best will only very very rarely roll steady squares, unless there is some sort of combined arms threat the infantry will from squares early and just wont be rolled. Calvary, particularly good cavalry are great at exploiting the moment, but you have to work hard to create the chance. Calvary can be very effective in a threat, getting the infantry form square, restricting maneuver, they dont necessarily have to charge to have an effect.

My general rule you charge when there is a follow available, pass through or other units that can push to close during the melee while the infantry is in square.

bahdahbum
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Posts: 1950
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:40 pm

Re: Russian Cavalry Lists 1812-1815

Post by bahdahbum » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:57 pm

Small units can be supported easely, especially if you are russian an use some of those cossacks to help you :D

Now large units are powerfull and not . If they come in range, form square . Be sure there is no room for them to go over the square to the back of your square . If Lucky, at defensive fire you will stop him or make him check . There is always a chance he will not charge home ( in our last game the french Grenadier Cheval were stopped cold by an artillery battery as the rest of the french guard cavalry). Once the behemoth is spent , it is much more easy to kill ...

pugsville
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Posts: 223
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:42 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Russian Cavalry Lists 1812-1815

Post by pugsville » Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:01 pm

Large spent Shock cavalry unit still fights better than a fresh small shock cavalry unit.

bahdahbum
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Posts: 1950
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:40 pm

Re: Russian Cavalry Lists 1812-1815

Post by bahdahbum » Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:08 pm

Large spent shock cavalry fight better IF in assault formation self supported . When you assault them with your cavalry, support your assault and give some flank support ..That might help a lot as having a gun in your formation might also help ( +1 dice ) . OK large means ignoring one hit ....but large means less units and you can consider assaulting one large unit with 2 small . Chances are the big unit loses the battle ...

bahdahbum
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Posts: 1950
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:40 pm

Re: Russian Cavalry Lists 1812-1815

Post by bahdahbum » Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:23 pm

and you might also be interested in : viewtopic.php?f=198&t=50103

I played with Terry and his cavalry never broke trough my squares . I still lost but in front of his infantry

BrettPT
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1264
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:52 am
Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: Russian Cavalry Lists 1812-1815

Post by BrettPT » Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:19 pm

Also large cavalry units generally give up 1 ACV point as soon as charge (assuming they get spent).

Post Reply

Return to “Scenarios, AAR's, Lists, Modelling and more”