Anglo-Netherlands Army 1815 - army building questions

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LeGrognard
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Anglo-Netherlands Army 1815 - army building questions

Post by LeGrognard » Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:08 pm

In "Triumph of Nations", it states that for an Anglo-Netherlands Army all infantry divisions (except Brunswick & Dutch-Belgian) must contain one British 'unit' AND one Hanovarian 'unit'.

Does this mean that if using British infantry as the core, then I can ignore the minimum bases requirement for Hanovarian stands (and vice versa) so long as I have one unit in the division?

So I could have one British division with;
1 x British Superior Line - 4 bases
2 x British Average Line - 6 bases (each)
1 x British 6pdr Field Arty - 2 bases
1 x Hanoverian Line - 6 bases (to meet the one unit requirement)

and I could also have one Hanoverian division with;
1 x Hanoverian Line - 6 bases
1 x Hanoverian Light - 4 bases
1 x British Superior Line - 4 bases (to meet the one unit requirement)
1 x Hanoverian Field Arty - 2 bases

Or am I still bound by the minimum base requirements in each case?

This would mean that Hanoverian units in a British Division must be 10 bases large (if I only want one unit) and that Hanoverian Divisions must have 4 bases of Superior British & 12 bases of Average British AND 2 RA Field Artillery stands (in addition to Hanoverian FA), in which case so you will never have "just one" British unit in a Hanoverian Division.

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Re: Anglo-Netherlands Army 1815 - army building questions

Post by Blathergut » Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:20 pm

I don't see anything that suggests you can ignore either British or Hanoverian minimums. I would think as a minimum you would need to have:

British:
-4 bases superior vet line inf
-either 3 units of 4 bases or 2 units of 6 bases ave vet/dr line inf

Hanoverian:
-4 bases and a 6 bases units of variable quality

You can't have a unit with 10 bases; only 4 or 6.

Perhaps panda2 will see this and can offer his expertise! He has been the best at rules clarifications.

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Re: Anglo-Netherlands Army 1815 - army building questions

Post by Blathergut » Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:22 pm

As to how you organize your divisions, the only requirement I see is that each infantry div. must have 1 of those Brit. units and 1 of those Han. units. Place the rest as you see fit.

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Re: Anglo-Netherlands Army 1815 - army building questions

Post by panda2 » Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:18 pm

The minimum number of bases of each troop type applies to the whole of your army (i.e. a corps), not to each division within the army. However, each infantry division must contain one Hanovarian and one British unit . This represents the organisation adopted at Waterloo where British and Hanovarian units were mixed in the same divisions, rather than in seperate divisions or corps.

The 10 compulsory bases of Hanovarian infantry could therefore be split between two different infantry divisions, each of which would also contain at least one British unit (each infantry division would still have to contain a minimum of three units). Similarly, the 4 compulsory bases of superior veteran infantry and 12 bases of other compulsory British infantry could be spread over several infantry divisions, each of which would also require one Hanovarian infantry or artillery unit. There is no need to meet the minimum number of bases in the list for each division, as long as it is met for the corps as a whole.

The arrangement of two divisions suggested would therefore be legal if they are fielded together, since combined they meet the minimum number of bases of each type of infantry (and artillery) for the corps and each contain at least one british unit and at least one Hanoverian unit.

Andy D

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Re: Anglo-Netherlands Army 1815 - army building questions

Post by LeGrognard » Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:12 pm

Ah! Thanks Andy. This is where I went wrong:
panda2 wrote:The minimum number of bases of each troop type applies to the whole of your army (i.e. a corps), not to each division within the army.
I got confused as I was looking at the lists and went off applying it to each division. So as you pointed out here:
panda2 wrote:There is no need to meet the minimum number of bases in the list for each division, as long as it is met for the corps as a whole.
That makes it much easier.

Thank you again for clearing this up.
Cheers

Ambiorix
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Re: Anglo-Netherlands Army 1815 - army building questions

Post by Ambiorix » Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:11 pm

Hi,

Just a bit confused wrt the very strict cavalry requirements for this list:

P136 states "no mixed divisions may be used.. Cavalry units may be combined to form 2 cavalry divisions. a cavalry division containing both hvy and light cav MUST have a min of 8 bases each;" British cavalry MUST be separate divisions from other cavalry";

In contempory army vocabulary 'combined' refers to units of different nationalities working together ('joint' referring to different components like air, naval, land);
How to interpretate the term 'combined' here if British MUST be separate ?

For 'colour' I would like to field the Scots Greys, Verden Hanover Hussars and Belgian Carabineers.

But in order to do this I guess I must create minimum a Hvy div with 2 British dragoons, a light div with Hanover Hussars and KGL hussars and an allied Cav division with 2 Carabineers; However this is 3 cavalry divisions, so only 1 (now very cumbersome) infantry division possible (without Belgian Allied infantry);
In effect, how to field 2 Belgian Divisions, if 1 British Cav div is mandatory and 1 British div too large?

Is there another way to include my favorite 3 cav units ? The divisional requirements are quite harsh, especially as the cavalry was not really organised into divisions but on brigade levels; Maybe allowing a mixed division would be a solution ?
For instance, Ponsonby's dragoon brigade at Waterloo is less than 1100 sabres strong, best represented by a 6 base unit (2 bases per regiment);

A 'native' of Waterloo, trying to work with this list;
Ambiorix,
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Re: Anglo-Netherlands Army 1815 - army building questions

Post by deadtorius » Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:55 pm

I believe the term "combined " here refers to making a division containing both heavy and light cavalry.

You need to have 8 bases each of light and heavy cavalry in the "combined" division (my interpretation of the list restrictions as you wrote them). So it would be a bulky cavalry division containing 2 units of heavies and 2 units of lights in a single division.

So that gives you a big awkward British combined cavalry division.
Your second division could have your Caribineers, 2 units and a horse battery, and is separate from the British division.

If you still have points left you can make your infantry divisions.

Suddenly the Austrian lists look so much easier, glad I didn't pick a British army to start with, although I had considered it back before the rules were released. :shock:

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Re: Anglo-Netherlands Army 1815 - army building questions

Post by Ambiorix » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:39 pm

Well I am afraid all these cavalry restrictions makes this list unworkable and unhistorical.

In addition, when choosing Belgian allies, their cavalry is also mandatory; So if you want to field
a mix of British and Belgian you have to take 1 Belgian Inf div and 1 Belgian Cav div, the British then have to take a large inf div and cumbersome cav div.
If you leave out the Belgians completely, you have to take either 2 cav divisions (British and 1 German) or 1 huge British cav division;

Where is the justification for all these mandatory cav units and the severe restrictions ?
The army in 1815 had following composition:
I. Corps : 2 AG (Anglo-German) inf div, 2 LC (Low Countries) inf div and 1 LC cav div (so no AG cav !)
II. Corps : 2 AG inf div, 1 LC inf div (No cavalry at all !)
Reserve Corps : 2 AG inf div (No cavalry)
Cavalry Corps : 8 Brigades : 2 Brit hvy dragoon, 1 Lt mixed, 4 Lt AC and 1 Lt Hanover; (no divisions and the 4th Brigade was a mix of British and KGL regt)

For the moment I will apply the restrictions litterally : my Corps will not have any 'British' cav (so at least circumventing 1 restriction) as the list only labels Hussars and Horse Guards as 'British'; My single Anglo-German cav division will therefore consist of 2 (oversized) 4 base hvy dragoon units - the Scots Greys and Irish Inniskilling :D , my Hanoverian hussars and a KGL Lt dragoon.
Thanks to the new cav ruling I can have a 2 unit small Belgian cav div (unless the same restriction applies to them wrt to a 4 unit combined cav div :cry: ); the rest of the army will be a top heavy Anglo-german div and a Belgian inf div;
A real pity this list is 'currently 'broken'. I hope it will be adjusted soon for history sake and playability
Ambiorix,
"Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae"

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Re: Anglo-Netherlands Army 1815 - army building questions

Post by deadtorius » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:02 pm

Perhaps there was a typo and it was supposed to contain at least 8 bases in total of each.
In this interpretation it would mean you need to have at least 8 bases, so 1 small light cav and 1 small heavy cav minimum, in a separate British cavalry division.
It would make the list much more user friendly and perhaps makes more sense.

It is all in the interpretation of what was written.
Perhaps that might be more useful to you.

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Re: Anglo-Netherlands Army 1815 - army building questions

Post by panda2 » Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:16 pm

There is no need to meet the cavalry minima if you import a Dutch Belgian infantry division or to meet the infantry minima if you import a Dutch Belgian cavalry division. See Terry's response in this thread viewtopic.php?f=188&t=35226 . You could therefore field two Dutch Belgian Infantry Divisions and no Dutch Belgian cavalry if you wanted to.

I also recall from an earlier discussion on the ToN Errata thread that KGL and Hanoverian Cavalry are considered "British" for the purpose of the list.

Andy D

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Re: Anglo-Netherlands Army 1815 - army building questions

Post by Ambiorix » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:35 pm

Thx Panda for pointing out the non-mandatory cavalry minima for the Belgian cav, that makes life much easier :).
panda2 wrote:I also recall from an earlier discussion on the ToN Errata thread that KGL and Hanoverian Cavalry are considered "British" for the purpose of the list
If this is the case, than what do they mean with 'other' cavalry ? Allied Belgian maybe ? So this brings be back to my earlier interpretation of 'combined'.

An 'official' clarification on these cavalry restrictions would be very helpfull (as would be a 'British' mixed division)
Ambiorix,
"Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae"

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Re: Anglo-Netherlands Army 1815 - army building questions

Post by terrys » Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:27 pm

If this is the case, than what do they mean with 'other' cavalry ? Allied Belgian maybe ? So this brings be back to my earlier interpretation of 'combined'.
In this particular case 'combined' means using units of different nationalities. I guess an errata is required to make it clear.
Given the fact that the only relevent unit is one of 4 Hanoverian light cavalry, we should probably do the following:
Replace the word "combined" with "used" (to avoid confusion).
Remove the bullet point: "British cavalry must be in seperate divisions from other cavalry"

On Dutch-Belgians........
If no Dutch Belgians are used their minima are ignored, otherwise:
Dutch-Belgain infantry must be used in 1 or 2 seperate allied infantry divisions (in which case the minima for cavalry are ignored).
Dutch Belgian cavalry may be used in 1 or 2 seperate allied cavalry divisions (in which case the minima for infantry are ignored).
1 each of Dutch Belgian infantry and cavalry divisions may be used (in which case the minima for each must be used)

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Re: Anglo-Netherlands Army 1815 - army building questions

Post by Ambiorix » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:00 pm

Ambiorix wrote:Where is the justification for all these mandatory cav units and the severe restrictions ?
The army in 1815 had following composition:
I. Corps : 2 AG (Anglo-German) inf div, 2 LC (Low Countries) inf div and 1 LC cav div (so no AG cav !)
II. Corps : 2 AG inf div, 1 LC inf div (No cavalry at all !)
Reserve Corps : 2 AG inf div (No cavalry)
Cavalry Corps : 8 Brigades : 2 Brit hvy dragoon, 1 Lt mixed, 4 Lt AC and 1 Lt Hanover; (no divisions and the 4th Brigade was a mix of British and KGL regt)
Thx Terrys for the clarification & proposed errata on 'combined';

However, why 12 bases compulsory cav bases, as with this list you cannot recreate any of existing corps of this short campaign.
Making British Cav optional would make more sense no ? Or allocating cav Brigades to a corps as 'mixed' division, in doing so giving British cav units less command control;
Looking forward in hearing your rationale,
cheers
Ambiorix,
"Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae"

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Re: Anglo-Netherlands Army 1815 - army building questions

Post by terrys » Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:57 am

However, why 12 bases compulsory cav bases, as with this list you cannot recreate any of existing corps of this short campaign.
Making British Cav optional would make more sense no ? Or allocating cav Brigades to a corps as 'mixed' division, in doing so giving British cav units less command control;
Looking forward in hearing your rationale,
You cannot create the infantry Corps for this campaign using the points system - they are far too large. We therefore took the decision to ignore the historical Corps formations and use instead the formations likely to be used in different areas of the battlefield.
The cavalry were deployed in brigades in support of the infantry divisions in each area of the battlefield. In order to create an 'army' for the forces in a particular sector of the battlefield (which would be represented by a single 'corps' in FOGN), you must include supporting cavalry of at least one brigade.

If you are creating a historical refight of either Quatre Bras or Waterloo then of course you'd use the historical OOB rather than the army lists in the book.

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Re: Anglo-Netherlands Army 1815 - army building questions

Post by Ambiorix » Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:30 pm

terrys wrote:The cavalry were deployed in brigades in support of the infantry divisions in each area of the battlefield. In order to create an 'army' for the forces in a particular sector of the battlefield (which would be represented by a single 'corps' in FOGN), you must include supporting cavalry of at least one brigade.
Yes exactly, but such a Cav Brigade was at the most 6 bases in total;
A compulsory large Cav Div of min. 12 to 16 bases will probably lead to players using this Div in some sweeping flank maneuvers, instead of keeping them close as inf support; That's why I proposed, for your consideration, 1 or 2 mixed divisions with each a cav brig, which to my opinion reflects better the historic use;
I could be wrong of course, having currently little practical FOGN battle experience, and will bow to the masters final decisions; :wink:
Ambiorix,
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Re: Anglo-Netherlands Army 1815 - army building questions

Post by hazelbark » Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:54 pm

Ambiorix wrote:Yes exactly, but such a Cav Brigade was at the most 6 bases in total;
A compulsory large Cav Div of min. 12 to 16 bases will probably lead to players using this Div in some sweeping flank maneuvers, instead of keeping them close as inf support; That's why I proposed, for your consideration, 1 or 2 mixed divisions with each a cav brig, which to my opinion reflects better the historic use;
I could be wrong of course, having currently little practical FOGN battle experience, and will bow to the masters final decisions; :wink:
I would partially agree and disagree.
In the Waterloo campaign the cavalry was deployed pretty aggressively so it would likely be on any battlefield.
I would not have them in mixed. Mixed is all advantage and no disadvantage which is something of an error i think.
I would optionally allow no british cavalry but allow an allied dutch belgian in its stead. OR reduce minimum to 2 units not 3.

In game terms I ran this list and if you are facing someone with distributed cavarly you can't afford to send all your cavalry on a flanking manuver.

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Re: Anglo-Netherlands Army 1815 - army building questions

Post by madlemmey » Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:28 pm

What ho chaps!
Long time lurker, first time poster.
nigelemsun has got me into these rules, and, fortuitously, I have an Anglo-Allied army boxed and ready to go, but I have a few questions about list flexibility.
I get the unit minima and maxima (Hanoverians etc), what is confusing me is how the divisions are constructed. Assuming I have 800 points to spend.
In terms of Divisions, I have to have the compulsory British infantry, but is the British cavalry compulsory too? It doesn't seem to leave any room for either the Dutch or the Brunswicker once all the minima are purchased, or am I missing something...

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Re: Anglo-Netherlands Army 1815 - army building questions

Post by hazelbark » Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:07 am

you're right very little room unless you really minimize your english.

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Re: Anglo-Netherlands Army 1815 - army building questions

Post by BrettPT » Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:54 am

By my my count, the minimums for this list add up to 548 points (3 divisions - two infantry and one cavalry).
This leaves 250 points for upgrades and/or additional units which is not a huge amount I agree, but not too bad.

The problem is that players naturally want to make their British infantry veterans, load them up with attachments, take some Heavy Cavalry and light infantry, maybe some Guard, then perhaps field a Dutch or Brunswick division as well, etc etc.

If I was drafting the list, I probably would have made only 1 battery compulsory, and perhaps drop the 12 British (non superior) infantry minimum to 8, the Hanovarian minimum to 6 and make the cavalry minimum 0 - basically a single (large) British infantry division is required, players can then bolt on additional optional divisions to this.

That said, I have my doubts whether such a change would actually alter what we see on the tabletop very much. The British players at our club seem commited to tooled up veteran infantry units - which are always going to chew through the points.

Cheers
Brett

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Re: Anglo-Netherlands Army 1815 - army building questions

Post by madlemmey » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:11 am

Thanks chaps,
I'll start looking at how to fill out those spare points.
So... Not as bad as 1815 Prussians, where I make the core list (with Generals) about 750 points!

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