Davout at Auerstadt

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ravenflight
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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by ravenflight » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:03 pm

hazelbark wrote:I am working up this scenario for our group.
Having played 1806 Prussians a good bit the Prussian infantry just gets cut down by the French. The only reason the Prussians are viable is they have more cavalry distributed around the army. So historically at Auerstadt the Prussians had a big cavalry advantage. It looks to be a good match up historically in game rules.
Hey Hazelbark, if I could point you to the Avalon Hill "Napoleon's Battles" scenario booklet, it might help. I have it so can scan and send it to you if you don't have access to it.

It gives some good suggestions (like how to kill off the good King more easily :) )

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by hazelbark » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:09 pm

I have that. I also have better raw material. One of the things I love about this period is I enjoy researching and attaching research from many sources. I have found a huge amount of games are very sloppy like putting a whole Corps at one point, when it was really just a brigade of one division.

I think Davout's Corps is like 1400 points. But off the top of my head I forget if all his divisions were present. I think one was not. But that's why I like the research.

The tougher part of this battle is the terrain and the timing of the reinforcements as they arrive.

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by ravenflight » Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:55 am

hazelbark wrote:The tougher part of this battle is the terrain and the timing of the reinforcements as they arrive.
Any info you come by I'd be very interested in having a copy, even if it's just references.

Points wise, I'd put it at between 1200 and 1300, but depends on a few factors. Some of Morand's Brigades should be (illegally) 6 bases by using the 'historical battle' section of the rules, and the artillery is kinda half way in between an attachment and a battery.

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by hazelbark » Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:34 pm

Most of the 05-07 period French historical OBs at battles should have attachments in divisions and at best 1 unit of Corps reserve artillery.

The massive uptick in guns occurs after the 07 campaign.

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by MDH » Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:18 pm

shadowdragon wrote:
ravenflight wrote:Ok, I might be missing something here... but it seems that 'you can't make III Corps'.

list = French Infantry Corps D'Armee 1805-1807.

Must have 8 bases of Legere (III Corps has 4-6), and can only have maximum 48 bases of Line... where III Corps has around 52! You must have 2 Batteries of Artillery (III Corps had 1).

Am I missing something here?
Don't actual orbits trump the lists?

So more line and fewer legere than the lists.

With respect to the artillery they as Brett indicated 13 guns (2 bases or 1 unit) in the 1st div, 8 in each of the 2nd and 3rd divs (1 base each as attachments) and 17 guns (2 bases or 1 unit). in the corps reserve. I see no issue here.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jena-Aue ... _of_Battle
Indeed .Any attempt to make a series of lists that modelled every known Corps of every army at all points in the era would be have been a labour of Hercules and of doubtful value even assuming there was an equal amount of data across all nations readily available .

I got a bit seduced by 1812 where at one stage we thought we would have a single 1812 book (with all the lists books thinner with abut 20-30 per book like the AM books) and where there is a wealth of rich data available on all the various French Corps D ‘Armee in 1812 so I embarked on a bit of a Corps by Corps thing ( mistake I think :roll: ) . So absolutely historical orbats as XX Corps on aa/bb/18cc needs to be modelled using the guide at the back of the rules and lists. And you will need to make a judgment on attachments . All lists for all rules are a guide in my view, an attempt to impose order on the un-orderable. :lol:

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by ravenflight » Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:29 pm

MDH,

I understand what you're saying, but my point was more that:

1- the 'standard' seems to be 800ap; and,
2- all corps in the 1806 campaign seem be be > 800ap

Given the above, you have to modify (i.e. weaken) any historical corps.

Now, I understand that MOST Corps in 1806 had 2 Brigades of Legere, but if you take the two Brigades of Legere (which are more expensive) then you have even less points to spend on Line. On top of this, (as Hazelbark said) most artillery appears to more qualify as 'attachments' but there is quite a bit of (also quite expensive) Corps Artillery park. All of this means (to my way of thinking) that if you build an 800ap corps you end up with a fully/over stocked corps of 'exotics' which means you have to have even weaker rank and file.

It probably doesn't help that the 1806 French are at their peak, so Veterans and Superior a lot of the time.

My feeling is though, that the compulsories on Legere and Arty are a bit high.

No worries though, as you said, it was a big task, and the lists look nice :)

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by shadowdragon » Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:40 pm

Ah, now I understand your concern, ravenflight.

When it comes to div artillery used as "attachments" keep in mind this is artillery used to provide "close fire power support" for the infantry (or cavalry) and not artillery used for "long range bombardment". (I've put quotations there because my terms might seem like modern artillery direct and general support.). As far as I know div artillery batteries were used both ways. However, the min size unit for long range support is 2 batteries. So it's a compromise I guess but 2 units is pretty high for 800 point corps. So I see that point. An 1805-06 corps should be about the very good line infantry.

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by ravenflight » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:34 pm

Just a quick question, when making your army.

Do Artillery attachments count against artillery minima?

I.e. If I build the 'French Infantry Corps d'Armee 1805-1807 (p95-98 of Emperors and Eagles) I have a compulsory of 4 Minimum base of Artillery.

If I had 2 divisions each with an Artillery attachment, and a 2 gun Corps artillery battery, have I complied with my '4 minima'?

I'm guessing not, but that is based on my experience with FoG:AM & FoG:R.
Last edited by ravenflight on Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by Blathergut » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:56 pm

In E & E, artillery attachments and artillery bases all count towards the minimums and maximums (some exceptions, see the errata).

I don't see a compulsory 8 bases. The list on page 97 shows 4 bases minimum and 6 maximum. If you take guard, note that the two artillery are just '2' minimum, the boxes are combined into one (as per errata), so minimum 2 guard arty bases.

To answer your question, yes, the two artillery attachments count towards the 4 minimum bases. (E & E only)

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by ravenflight » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:01 pm

Blathergut wrote:... I don't see a compulsory 8 bases...
Sorry, typo, and edited. I think I was still hung up on the 8 bases of Legere. I'm like a dog with a bone... or rather I am like le dog with le bone.

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by hazelbark » Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:00 pm

The "sterotype" French Division in the early period
was 3 regiments of Line, 1 regiment of Legere and 1 8 gun artillery battery.

As mentioned sometimes there were two legere and sometime 0 legere.

Now there is an argument that some of the French line could and did function like legere do in the FOGN rules.

So I don't find the list suggestion here particularly onerous.

The one issue is the 800 point.
It is constrained enough that for the lists it forces you to choose less than having 3 good arms. That is helpful for competitions I suppose.
My group routinely does 850 and 900 points. The risk is the games are slightly longer. It does actually significantly change the options you can play.

But you are right in the early period 800 is below most normal battle sizes and below Corps sizes.
Davout at Auerstadt is around 1400 points
At Teugen Hausen granted 1809 he is probably just under 1000 points

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by ravenflight » Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:02 pm

hazelbark wrote:Now there is an argument that some of the French line could and did function like legere do in the FOGN rules.

So I don't find the list suggestion here particularly onerous.
That's EXACTLY the conclusion I've come to with regards to justifying my army pick. I may even go so far as paint one Brigade up as Line but have them based as Legere.

Having said that, I do not think it would be a huge game changer to have this list allow a minimum of 4 bases of lights, and I believe would make the list better. I mean MOST people would still take the 8 (or more) but by allowing the minimum to be 4 you allow those corps that did only have 1 BG of Legere. Also if you consider the corps that had 2 divisions of French and one division of non-French, you limit (severely) the ability to 'drop' (for points reasons) one of the French divisions and have one division of French and one division of allies... so there are further corps that cannot be represented. Again, a game killer? No, but something worth thinking about IMHO.

Onto something completely different... I made my list which is basically Morand and Friant's divisions. The foot, I've made Veteran Average (I believe), but my question is... would an army of Average Drilled lead by exceptional leaders GENERALLY fare better or worse than any army of Average Veteran (or Superior Drilled for that matter) lead by Skilled?

It pains me to make Morand and Friant skilled. I'm sure they will haunt me, but I have to make points up somewhere :)

I've not put one figure anywhere near a wargaming table, so assume I know nothing when answering please...

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by ravenflight » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:47 pm

Ok, here is my list - criticize all you like :)

Actually, in all seriousness please advise if it's not a legal list, and please give any suggestions to problems I may face:

Image

By way of explanation, the Cavalry brigade is 'historical Regiments' but I have combined them all into one 6 base unit.

Amended post Blathergut's comments
Last edited by ravenflight on Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by Blathergut » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:52 pm

If you are following page 97:

-maximum 12 bases average veteran line infantry

-you spreadsheet shows 3 chasseurs units but only shows points for the first one

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by Blathergut » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:58 pm

ahhhHHhh...finally noticed your note at the bottom :)

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by ravenflight » Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:01 am

Blathergut wrote:If you are following page 97:

-maximum 12 bases average veteran line infantry
Thanks

Edited.

BTW - is it an 'effective force' or is it like building a Guard Corps - so elite it will get shot to pieces and mobbed by something less elite?

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by Blathergut » Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:11 am

Well, I know if I was facing Dead.'s Austrians at 800 points he'd have probably close to 14 units compared to your 9. You'll have to move fast and hit one spot hard before flanks are wrapped around. Problem arises when one unit is halted and doesn't advance or one unit is disordered/wavered and it hangs everything up.

For me, I'd go with a lot less command and more troops. Make Corps exceptional and charismatic but the rest skilled/competent. That's 100 points to spend on troops.

But...

The fascinating thing about this game and the lists is how incredibly varied a corps can be. So why not try it as is? You get a lot of rerolls on failed cohesion tests!!!!!

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by hazelbark » Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:11 pm

So here's a few thoughts on a historical list. Not a competition lis.
1) The Whole Corps is Veteran. Maybe some could be superior drilled. Chasseurs.
2) The Divisional make skilled and Charismatic to preference.
3) The Iron Marshal is Exception Charismatic (for the discipline effect)
4) Each division gets 1 Med Art attachment. Morand could get 2. I forget why I thought that.
5) Probably one Corps Artillery heavy. Attach to division of choice.

I think these are the roster strengths of the day.

Morand
13th Légère 1,512
17th Ligne 2,056
30th Ligne 1,854
51th Ligne 2,099
30th Ligne 2,098

Friant
33rd Ligne 1,936
48th Ligne 1,632
108th Ligne 1,607
118th Ligne 2,149

Gudin
12th Ligne 2,068
21st Ligne 2,278
25th Ligne 1,864
85th Ligne 2,223

Villannes
1st Chasseurs 511
2nd Chasseurs 563
12th Chasseurs 540

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by MDH » Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:09 pm

Looking generally at this discussion I guess for modelling historical Corps orbats you can go two ways:

a) try to shoehorn each list into an 800 ( or other) standard points ceiling (or floor) - this is what we tried to do but I guess did not always succeed precisely in every case ( minima cam be an issue.) I tended to defer to Terry on that process as he is the experienced comp gamer but in my originals - which he then worked on to make them fit - took a more " purist" view". Hence some do not "fit" the historical data so well.
b) model a historic corps orbat regardless of points.

In defence of the latter, at Auerstadt Davout was heavily outnumbered in men (as well as " points" :lol: ) so attempting to stick to 800 seems a tad unfair on him!

Having done several historical multi corps/player refights the points - or even the precise historic orbats - matter less than the set up. Get the latter wrong and one side can have little chance.

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by ravenflight » Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:13 pm

hazelbark wrote:The Iron Marshal is Exception Charismatic (for the discipline effect)
Yes, I guess I didn't think of him being particularly Charismatic, but he was like a boss who you don't like, but you respect because he gets the job done... so you're more likely to do what he tells you to do than someone you like, but is an idiot.

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