Davout at Auerstadt

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BrettPT
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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by BrettPT » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:43 am

he was like a boss who you don't like, but you respect because he gets the job done... so you're more likely to do what he tells you to do than someone you like, but is an idiot.
Sounds like Wellington!

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by hazelbark » Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:41 pm

I've been working up the Prussian OB it looks like around 2300 points vs Davout's 1400

But given the Prussian command structure and timing of arrival it looks interesting. The real challenge is there was a lot of Prussian Heavy Cavalry around. Also 660 of those Prussian is the late arriving Reserve divisions. This may be a really close and excellent scenario. I just can't tell who will have more fun the French or the Prussians!

PS One of the other things I love that I have said before. But FOG N has got me digging through all sorts of historical documents and files to research these scenarios. I am really loving that. History and gaming and great combination.

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by MDH » Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:25 pm

ravenflight wrote:
hazelbark wrote:The Iron Marshal is Exception Charismatic (for the discipline effect)
Yes, I guess I didn't think of him being particularly Charismatic, but he was like a boss who you don't like, but you respect because he gets the job done... so you're more likely to do what he tells you to do than someone you like, but is an idiot.
I have soft spot for the Iron Marshal as my comments in the books suggest.. " If Ney is Davout there is no Waterloo..."

Like Marius never gave Sulla full credit and Caesar some of his subordinate commanders in Gaul (on of whom became an assassin) , Napoleon seems to me to have downplayed Davout's qualities -a general's general as well as soldiers general. I believe he never lost a battle where he was in command.

But he also had three outstanding divisional commanders Friant, Gudin and Morand- a tad expensive under FoG(N) to make them all exceptional ! But one E plus 3 S's is pretty sharp. Yes charismatic seems a bit too far to go.

One could argue that overall his Corps from 1805-1809 bears comparison with Stonewall's in 1862-3 as the most effective Corps in the conflict at that time .

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by MDH » Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:33 pm

hazelbark wrote:I've been working up the Prussian OB it looks like around 2300 points vs Davout's 1400


PS One of the other things I love that I have said before. But FOG N has got me digging through all sorts of historical documents and files to research these scenarios. I am really loving that. History and gaming and great combination.
Me too especially in the 1790's.

The combination for me has always been the draw along with trying to present the gamer with some at least of the dilemmas and hard choices of the era in question. Good scenarios with some written briefs by a game master often do it best and sometimes hidden ones- Gettysburg set in the 1810's, etc. Do folk make the same crucial mistakes or misjudgements or false assumptions? Although sometime gamers are just too aggressive compared to the originals!

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by hazelbark » Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:07 pm

MDH wrote:[
One could argue that overall Davout's Corps from 1805-1809 ...as the most effective Corps in the conflict at that time .
Pretty clear Davout was the most critical in that period, agreed.

Austerlitz key role
Auerstadt decisive
Eylau key role
Friedland missed
Bavaria decisive
Aspern-Essling missed
Wagram key role

Soult
Only Austerlitz, Jena, Eylau

Lannes probably is closest rival for title
Austerlitz key role
Jena
Pultusk although his Corps was never the same after this
Friedland parts present
Aspern Essling.

ravenflight
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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by ravenflight » Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:40 pm

MDH wrote:I have soft spot for the Iron Marshal as my comments in the books suggest.. " If Ney is Davout there is no Waterloo..."
Yes, but if Ney was Davout, there would have been no Paris. Davout was the only one that Napoleon could trust to get the country ready for another series of wars.
MDH wrote:But he also had three outstanding divisional commanders Friant, Gudin and Morand- a tad expensive under FoG(N) to make them all exceptional ! But one E plus 3 S's is pretty sharp. Yes charismatic seems a bit too far to go.
I think it depends. I haven't even played a single game yet, so cannot really discuss games mechanisms, but I'd say that it depends on what 'Charismatic' does as a game effect. It's just a word in the rules, and certainly Davout was no Ney or Murat when it came to Charisma, but if by giving him that characteristic (word) in the rules makes him more Davout like, I have no problem with it.

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by MDH » Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:19 am

ravenflight wrote:
MDH wrote:I have soft spot for the Iron Marshal as my comments in the books suggest.. " If Ney is Davout there is no Waterloo..."
Yes, but if Ney was Davout, there would have been no Paris. Davout was the only one that Napoleon could trust to get the country ready for another series of wars.
MDH wrote:But he also had three outstanding divisional commanders Friant, Gudin and Morand- a tad expensive under FoG(N) to make them all exceptional ! But one E plus 3 S's is pretty sharp. Yes charismatic seems a bit too far to go.
I think it depends. I haven't even played a single game yet, so cannot really discuss games mechanisms, but I'd say that it depends on what 'Charismatic' does as a game effect. It's just a word in the rules, and certainly Davout was no Ney or Murat when it came to Charisma, but if by giving him that characteristic (word) in the rules makes him more Davout like, I have no problem with it.
Quite right of course re Paris - Napoleon was running out of senior generals he could trust politically as well as administratively and Davout was always loyal- neither Soult nor Ney could be totally trusted politically by then having both served the Bourbons . For the same reason he held Hamburg in 1813/14 when again, had he been the wing commander at Bautzen instead of Ney, things might have been different Perhaps Suchet who was in the south in 1815 might also have done better than Ney in Belgium. My point in the book was really to flag up some of he "counter factuals" available in 1815.

Re charismatic it is really about rallying troops easier and a list will say whether one can have any charismatic leaders at Division or Corps level and how many of either. The extra cost in points is marginal the lists don't name generals as such, even though in some armies it is implicit ( eg Suvarov in Italy in 1799 and some of the 1812 Corps lists) and I gave up the idea of trying to classify ALL the generals of the era as a " too hard" " too contentious " " too subjective" and of little value:lol:

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by MDH » Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:23 am

hazelbark wrote:
MDH wrote:[
One could argue that overall Davout's Corps from 1805-1809 ...as the most effective Corps in the conflict at that time .
Pretty clear Davout was the most critical in that period, agreed.

Austerlitz key role
Auerstadt decisive
Eylau key role
Friedland missed
Bavaria decisive
Aspern-Essling missed
Wagram key role

Soult
Only Austerlitz, Jena, Eylau

Lannes probably is closest rival for title
Austerlitz key role
Jena
Pultusk although his Corps was never the same after this
Friedland parts present
Aspern Essling.
Perhaps one might also ague that his Corps gave the fullest expression to the Napoleonic concept of the Corps d'armee in its internal organisation, performance and operational practice?

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by martymagnificent » Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:49 am

It looks like you will get a chance to try out Davout's boys against an Austrian horde Ravenflight. Complete with the curassiers I just ordered from Eureka. I'm going for helmeted infantry so Austerlitz perhaps? Or I can put down a few shako units and it can be Wagram.

These FOG N armies are huge! Easily double the size of an ancients army. The prospect of the painting required is a bit daunting.

Martin

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by BrettPT » Thu Aug 14, 2014 4:50 am

martymagnificent wrote:These FOG N armies are huge! Easily double the size of an ancients army. The prospect of the painting required is a bit daunting.

Martin
With 18mm chaps, you can easily get by with 6 figures per base rather than 8 - reducing the painting workload.

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by ravenflight » Thu Aug 14, 2014 11:06 am

martymagnificent wrote:The prospect of the painting required is a bit daunting.
Well, I love historical Napoleonic battles, so I'm aiming for doing both sides at Leipzig.

No, I'm not serious.

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by shadowdragon » Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:28 pm

ravenflight wrote:
martymagnificent wrote:The prospect of the painting required is a bit daunting.
Well, I love historical Napoleonic battles, so I'm aiming for doing both sides at Leipzig.

No, I'm not serious.
Hahahahaha

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by shadowdragon » Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:29 pm

ravenflight wrote:
martymagnificent wrote:The prospect of the painting required is a bit daunting.
Well, I love historical Napoleonic battles, so I'm aiming for doing both sides at Leipzig.

No, I'm not serious.
I was thinking....I want to be in your club.

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by ravenflight » Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:37 am

Ok... here it is... I've got a game this weekend against a mate who is bringing some 1812 (I think) Brits. Here is what he'll be facing:

Image

The greyed out 'brigade' is the extra I will get if/when I win enough initiative to get the 40 points extra.

I've 'brigaded' two Regiments together to enable myself to get something similar to what I'm considering III Corps to be.

The theory on running the force is:

Each 'Brigade' has an artillery and cavalry attachment. Anyone that does have any skirmishers will therefore hopefully be outshot.
The 2nd (Friant) Division is designed to be able to go on a flank march, so has a skilled commander AND quality enough to survive on its own (I hope) for a bit. It's also small enough that it can all come on at one time.

I've dropped the 6 base Chasseurs down to 4 bases so that I can go into line easier and evade, and I've spread the rest of the historical regimental numbers as attachments.

Friant's division actually had Artillerie a Cheval, so it's a bit of a tall order to make them Medium Guns - especially seeing 1806 French Artillerie a Cheval were 4lbers, but 'never let the facts get in the way of a good paint job'. I would have taken 4lbers if I could, but I can't, so have to take them as Mediums.

So, pick it to pieces. I'm sure it will get over-run, but I'm hoping that I've designed a force that isn't totally easy to out-shoot and so will make up for numbers by quality and design.

Thoughts?

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by MDH » Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:14 am

shadowdragon wrote:
ravenflight wrote:Ok, I might be missing something here... but it seems that 'you can't make III Corps'.

list = French Infantry Corps D'Armee 1805-1807.

Must have 8 bases of Legere (III Corps has 4-6), and can only have maximum 48 bases of Line... where III Corps has around 52! You must have 2 Batteries of Artillery (III Corps had 1).

Am I missing something here?
Don't actual orbits trump the lists?

So more line and fewer legere than the lists.

With respect to the artillery they as Brett indicated 13 guns (2 bases or 1 unit) in the 1st div, 8 in each of the 2nd and 3rd divs (1 base each as attachments) and 17 guns (2 bases or 1 unit). in the corps reserve. I see no issue here.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jena-Aue ... _of_Battle
Our lists - the maxima and minima in particular - were designed to produce a " standard" game in points terms for tournaments and for a club evening "turn and play" type of game and a force of corps size and shape 20-25,000 men. In most cases they are not an actual Corps on a given day although some are based on one in a particular campaign across several battles (eg the 1812 Lits ). Others are " blends" of several Corps giving you building block options by " importing" a division from a different list eg a heavy Cav division or Guard Division into an Infantry Corps .

But a historical orbat is fine and works- at the back of the rules and in both the lists books we have ready reckoner tab.les showing how to convert a historical orbat. In that case you need to judge the Superior/average /Poor and veteran/drilled/conscript mix for a historical orbat but the lists will give you a guide . Of course for Aeurstadt the French would be heavily out numbered by the opposing Prussians :shock: for whom a single Corps would be insufficient

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by ravenflight » Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:03 am

ravenflight wrote:Ok... here it is... I've got a game this weekend against a mate who is bringing some 1812 (I think) Brits. Here is what he'll be facing:
Except I'll have to modify it... I just realised I have too many Artillery attachments (damn it)

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by ravenflight » Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:46 am

Well, I'm about to play my first game. Interesting to see how the game goes.

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by ravenflight » Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:48 am

ravenflight wrote:
ravenflight wrote:Ok... here it is... I've got a game this weekend against a mate who is bringing some 1812 (I think) Brits. Here is what he'll be facing:
Except I'll have to modify it... I just realised I have too many Artillery attachments (damn it)
I just halved the number of Artillery attachmets, made them Heavy and added Skirmishers instead.

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