Defensive Spearmen, what are they good for???

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davem
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Defensive Spearmen, what are they good for???

Post by davem » Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:20 am

Played my Minoans vs Christian Nubians. Advanced my spearblocks towards his Bw and survived the delude of shooting fairly well. (Whats with CN being superior bow anyway???)
Charged into the Bw and was then surprised to get broken by them in HtH??? WTF???
My opponent, Ray "The Helmet", nice chap as he is, then explained that Def Sp were rubbish and were little use at all and that few people took FOG armies fielding significant numbers of these troops.
That may be so in FOG as a game mechanism, but I'm supposed to accept that a formed body of men with partial armour and shields can get beaten in HtH by unprotected archers with no HtH weapon other than bare hands and daggers??
This for me was one more nail in the coffin of a game that promised so much but has failed to deliver.

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Post by carlos » Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:34 am

ITT toy soldiers player gets butthurt over rolling bad dice. To be fair the odds were for you:

Impact per frontage of 4:
- CN have 12 dice at 5+ superior so 4.6 hits on average
- Minoans have 8 dice at 4+ average so 4 hits on average
Mind you if the CN lose they are at an extra -1 to their cohesion

Melee assuming steady on both sides:
- CN have 8 dice at 5+ superior so 3.1 hits on average
- Minoans have 8 dice at 3+ average so 5.3 hits on average

So... rolling average dice is the solution?

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Post by Robert241167 » Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:39 am

I think there would be no net POA at impact as defensive spear get no + when charging.

Providing defensive spearmen survive the impact then armoured should be at a ++ in melee.

Rob

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Re: Defensive Spearmen, what are they good for???

Post by philqw78 » Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:42 am

Oh bitter and twisted one. Ray is wrong. However I do feel defensive spear are hard done to at impact against those with no impact POA's. Lots of people like defensive spear as they are excellent at doing their job. Defending things. They are not shock so do not charge when their owner does not want them to. I think they lose POA at impact so that they are not used unhistorically, to charge things out of the way. You should have used your defensive spear to shepherd his cavalry, and your offensive troops, chariots(?), to take out his bows, jumping out on the bow from safe positions behind the spear. If you survive the impact you are at ++ with the defensive spear, if you don't you are in trouble. And he gets more dice at impact.
Just because the nubians do not have a POA does not mean they do not have HtH weapons, it means they don't have particularly effective ones. Just like defensive spear do not a a particularly effective charge.
phil
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Post by davem » Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:43 am

carlos wrote:ITT toy soldiers player gets butthurt over rolling bad dice. To be fair the odds were for you:

Impact per frontage of 4:
- CN have 12 dice at 5+ superior so 4.6 hits on average
- Minoans have 8 dice at 4+ average so 4 hits on average
Mind you if the CN lose they are at an extra -1 to their cohesion

Melee assuming steady on both sides:
- CN have 8 dice at 5+ superior so 3.1 hits on average
- Minoans have 8 dice at 3+ average so 5.3 hits on average

So... rolling average dice is the solution?
I do have rubbish dice luck playing FOG it's true :cry: , just ask anyone down the club. Rolling 13 dice in 2 ronds requiring 4 to hit I scored one hit....
But I thought FOG was supposed to be less luck-dependant than DBM? Not in my experience it isn't...
And in my OP I should have added that all 5 of my Def Sp BG's were broken in HtH by CN Bw. Not one went into HtH disrupted....
If that's just bad luck then I'm really in trouble.....
Minoans are simply crap, the only troop type worth having is the H Ch as the MF are light spear only and about as bad as the HF!!

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Post by paulcummins » Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:54 am

Christian Nubians just have magic dice

8 Heavily armoured Heavy weapon, HF - shot to disrupted on the way in , had to fight them to autobreak, took ages, and then the rest of my army collapsed (oh, and then I rolled a 1)

armoured guys should go through them - the overhead shooting needs 6s so shouldnt be too hurt in impact.

but whats the point of defensive spears? the clue is in the name!

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Post by philqw78 » Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:05 am

carlos wrote:ITT toy soldiers player gets butthurt over rolling bad dice. To be fair the odds were for you:

Impact per frontage of 4:
- CN have 12 dice at 5+ superior so 4.6 hits on average
- Minoans have 8 dice at 4+ average so 4 hits on average
Mind you if the CN lose they are at an extra -1 to their cohesion

Melee assuming steady on both sides:
- CN have 8 dice at 5+ superior so 3.1 hits on average
- Minoans have 8 dice at 3+ average so 5.3 hits on average

So... rolling average dice is the solution?
The spear get no POA at impact so have a very good chance of losing. The CN would have 8 dice at 4+ and 4 dice at 5+ (I believe the Minoan def Sp is protected) re-rolling 1's (2's if they have a general). So 6 hits to the spears 4, so the spear are taking 2 minuses to their CMT and will lose a base, and therefore a POA in the melee for that file. Very bad, and not too much luck there. The spear should lose impact badly the way the POA's work against def spear at impact.
phil
putting the arg into argumentative

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Post by nikgaukroger » Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:12 am

philqw78 wrote:The spear should lose impact badly the way the POA's work against def spear at impact.

OTOH they are then ++ in melee so you need to plan to get them to that stage in as good a condition as you can manage - thats the planning (which includes some basic research into the PoAs) and skill part, if you don't do that part you get what you deserve.

Dave's biggest problem is that he isn't any good at FoG, partly because he keeps trying to play it as DBM :shock: :twisted: :twisted: :wink:
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Post by philqw78 » Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:19 am

Never mind, he should start being happy nexy year, around the 9th september, but then he'll be sad for another 4 years after the 23 Oct :lol:
phil
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Post by davem » Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:48 am

nikgaukroger wrote:
philqw78 wrote:The spear should lose impact badly the way the POA's work against def spear at impact.
Sorry but I just don't buy this. While I acknowlege Minoans aren't a spearblock like a hoplite phalanx etc, surely there must be a combat advantage for men trained to do frontline HtH when they get stuck into unprotected bowmen?


OTOH they are then ++ in melee so you need to plan to get them to that stage in as good a condition as you can manage - thats the planning (which includes some basic research into the PoAs) and skill part, if you don't do that part you get what you deserve.

It was in melee I was loosing!! Ray had more dice plus re-rolls admitedly at % to hit, while I only hit on 4's with 50% less dice. Totally wrong IMO.

Dave's biggest problem is that he isn't any good at FoG, partly because he keeps trying to play it as DBM :shock: :twisted: :twisted: :wink:
:lol: :lol: I don't really think I'm that bad at FOG, I've played 50-70 games, but it's true I'm playing DBM in my head. For me FOG doesn't touch DBM for the game experience. I've found that after the initial deployment/manouver phase, there is little thought process in FOG apart from ensuring your CT's are at best odds (rear support, generals in range etc) and I rapidly get bored with throwing dice with no "which combat 1st" decisions to make. The game bores the pants off me and I am at the point of entirely walking away from FOG.

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Post by davem » Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:04 am

philqw78 wrote:Never mind, he should start being happy nexy year, around the 9th september, but then he'll be sad for another 4 years after the 23 Oct :lol:
Darned right I'd be sad!!! Pay all that money for travel and tickets to find out I'm in Eden Park a whole year early..... :lol: :wink: :roll:

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Post by philqw78 » Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:04 am

I think it was Dave wrote:Sorry but I just don't buy this. While I acknowlege Minoans aren't a spearblock like a hoplite phalanx etc, surely there must be a combat advantage for men trained to do frontline HtH when they get stuck into unprotected bowmen?
But they weren't trained for frontline hand to hand. They would be offensive spear then. Though I tend to agree that defensive spear should get a POA at imapct against defensive spear and foot with no impact POA, otherwise when protected or unprotected they will almost always lose to bowmen due to poor impact performance.

D'oh 2011. Mind you if the all blacks start a year early they may perform how they are supposed to.
phil
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Post by davem » Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:13 am

philqw78 wrote:
I think it was Dave wrote:Sorry but I just don't buy this. While I acknowlege Minoans aren't a spearblock like a hoplite phalanx etc, surely there must be a combat advantage for men trained to do frontline HtH when they get stuck into unprotected bowmen?
But they weren't trained for frontline hand to hand. They would be offensive spear then. Though I tend to agree that defensive spear should get a POA at imapct against defensive spear and foot with no impact POA, otherwise when protected or unprotected they will almost always lose to bowmen due to poor impact performance.

####Well then give them that option in the army lists. I'd take offensive Sp over def Sp anytime. I'm aggressive by nature in my wargaming anyway.####

D'oh 2011. Mind you if the all blacks start a year early they may perform how they are supposed to.
Sure gave me a good laugh, hoist by your own petard Sir!! :lol:

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Post by philqw78 » Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:39 am

davem wrote:Well then give them that option in the army lists. I'd take offensive Sp over def Sp anytime. I'm aggressive by nature in my wargaming anyway
Blame Nik, he wrote ALL the lists, he must have thought they were crap. But at least prot def Sp cost the same as unprot super bow. And you might find something the spear are better against. But I doubt it. Why not try a lancer army Dave. Much more fun than pedestrian foot blokes and namby pamby skirmisher cav
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Post by nikgaukroger » Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:40 am

davem wrote:The game bores the pants off me and I am at the point of entirely walking away from FOG.

I don't understand why you haven't - why play a game that you dislike so much? Its a hobby for enjoyment not an exercise in mental self harm :shock:
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Post by davem » Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:21 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:
davem wrote:The game bores the pants off me and I am at the point of entirely walking away from FOG.

I don't understand why you haven't - why play a game that you dislike so much? Its a hobby for enjoyment not an exercise in mental self harm :shock:
Because I still enjoy the social aspect of gaming against all you lot...God alone knows why!! :lol:
I'm still waiting for my "Road to Damascus" moment of enlightenment, but I fear it will never happen.

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Post by nikgaukroger » Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:41 pm

davem wrote: Because I still enjoy the social aspect of gaming against all you lot...God alone knows why!! :lol:
True - ultimately why we play these silly games. It'd certainly be a shame not to see you down the club :cry:
I'm still waiting for my "Road to Damascus" moment of enlightenment, but I fear it will never happen.

I'm inclined to agree - but admire your tenacity.
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Post by philqw78 » Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:46 pm

What armies have you got Dave? If you say you like to play aggressively a few crappy bonze age chariots and a bucket full of defensive spearmen won't suit you. Try your NKE, but with minimum chariots and Max impact foot against something historical. Or use Libyan Egytian with even more impact foot.
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Post by spikemesq » Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:06 pm

Dave M:

Aww, u mad?

Spike

Posting in a butt-hurt thread.

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Post by johno » Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:28 pm

I must admit I was surprised to see the Minoans classed as Defensive Spear. I'd be really interested to see the thinking behind that decision.

Given they are well-enough equipped to be confident troops, and are apparently depicted with swordsmen mixed in their formations in some surviving artwork, I expected them to be Offensive Spear.

I was never happy with the Pike(X) DBM classification, not least because of the anomalies it threw up. If I give my best warriors large shields to fight in the front ranks of my formations, this reduces the number of ranks they can fight in?

This led to unhistorical formations in DBM Minoan games: since they all counted as (I) in most circumstances, all the (X) pikes would be formed three ranks deep, and all the (I) four ranks deep, rather than front ranks of (X) and rear ranks of (I). Very occasionally you would see them deployed as one rank of (X) and one rank of Ps(O) archers, usually on an open flank, where they were good at filling large open spaces, and keeping cavalry and light horse at bay.

Because they were pike rather than spear, it was far too risky to deploy them in two ranks anywhere else, since the low pike factor made them vulnerable to other heavy foot.

I was also disappointed (but not surprised) that the chariots were not lancers. Making them heavy is an attempt to make them effective in combat without that capability, I presume, but I'm not sure it works. In four trial games by our local Minoan player, they were just too slow to do the job.

For the original poster: we find the spear work best in eights, deployed 3-3-2, with no integral light foot. If the archers had been medium foot, they might have been useful, but as light foot, you are better off using them as separate skirmishers.

The 3-3-2 formation allows for some losses before you lose the two rank bonus, and makes it more difficult for shooters to cause tests on you. They are also slightly more manoeuvrable.

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