Concerns about 25mm

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daveallen
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Concerns about 25mm

Post by daveallen »

The following extract was posted by Iain McNeil in the Scale and Basing thread in September 2006.
... Our current plan is to make scale irrelevant, so movement distances do not change in different scales. The idea was to allow people with 25mm armies to get as interesting a game as players with 15mm armies, and not reduce it to a heavy foot slog. Obviously people will be able to make adjustments if they choose, but this will be the default rule.
...
A quick disclaimer - as the rules are still in development all of this is subject to change!
I'm posting it as a separate topic because I think it's important in it's own right.

I hope the idea of the same ground scale for 15mm and 25mm is one that got lost in development...

My main worry is the characterisation of the 25mm game as uninteresting. Especially as this seems to be the main area where game systems can expand the Ancients hobby. I realise this was a while ago and might just have been a throaway remark but just in case:

25mm [in DBM at least] still has ample opportunity for tactical finesse and decisive cavalry actions and for me it more accurately reflects the feel of ancient warfare where the majority of battles hinged on the "heavy foot slog".

Compare this to the routine abominations of DBM 15mm:
  • three quarters of the game [if you're lucky] spent fighting your way through a skirmish screen;
    commands made up of 30% expendable elites and 70% peasants cowering in a wood;
    elements scattered all over the table while a lone block of infantry will never reach anything worth fighting.
Rant over :oops:

You get my point? - 25mm should be seen as a viable game in its own right, not an inferior version of 15mm.

Dave
rbodleyscott
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Re: Concerns about 25mm

Post by rbodleyscott »

daveallen wrote:You get my point? - 25mm should be seen as a viable game in its own right, not an inferior version of 15mm.
Dave,

Your points are well made and we are attempting to address them in our design. We are all experienced DBM players and are well aware of the issues.

We certainly don't want 25mm to be a poor relation, and are devoting as much play-test time as possible to 25mm. My last 3 games have been 25mm.

We want our rules for both 15mm and 25mm scales to make for viable games for all types of armies on 6 foot x 4 foot tables (sorry everyone for the UK measurements). We don't want cavalry/skirmisher armies to dominate 15mm and foot-slogger armies to dominate 25mm. We want the game to be balanced for all types of armies in both scales. We want the massed infantry armies of the Classical period to be equally viable to the massed cavalry armies of the later Middle East. We don't want either to dominate in either scale.

To this end we have increased the 15mm move distances to correspond roughly to DBM 25mm move distances. There is therefore no need to also increase the 25mm move distances. Hence we use the same move distances and ranges in 25mm as in 15mm. Despite this, the scope for manoeuvre is reduced in 25mm due to the bases being 50% wider, and the armies therefore taking up correspondingly more space.

Rest assured that our thinking is not dominated by either scale.

Also, skirmishers do not have the ability to greatly slow the enemy advance in AoW, elements are not scattered all over the table, and there is no "bunging" possible at all.

Best wishes,

Richard
daveallen
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Post by daveallen »

Err, thanks for the clarification Richard. Never occurred to me that you'd increase 15mm move distances to 25mm ones :oops:

Glad to see I'll still have a good game at 25mm.

Dave
donm
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Post by donm »

Is this the Dave Allen of plastics fame. Sorry could not resist. Steve and I are part of the testers team and so far have played two 25mm games. In the games we have played the number of elements per side is approx the same as 400 points DBM, but this has not lead to an edge to edge slog. I have been using my Sassanids, (something only a madman would do in DBM) and have been able to skirmish effectively.

Regards

Don M
daveallen
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Post by daveallen »

Sounds good to me Don but for me the acid test is will it make my Jewish Revolt army viable?

By viable I mean turn it into a bunch of double-crossing, backstabbing sectarians more concerned to attack each other than the Romans. :wink:

Dave
donm
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Post by donm »

Sounds good to me Don but for me the acid test is will it make my Jewish Revolt army viable?

By viable I mean turn it into a bunch of double-crossing, backstabbing sectarians more concerned to attack each other than the Romans.
The viablity my be down to the player more than the rules :lol:

Although I am sure we could both put forward a few names :twisted:

Regards

Don M
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