Points frustration

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NickW
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Points frustration

Post by NickW » Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:55 am

I'm not sure if this has been raised before, but creating armies to a certain point size has a large degree of frustration to it because the cost of every additional BG, base or upgrade is generally quite large, often a minimum of 8-12 points. This is natural given it uses units, and is quite different to, say, DBM where you could buy a single element for just a few points. (This is even more apparent I think in FOG-R and FOG-N - in some armies of the former a minimum change can be comfortable in double figures). So often you can be left with a large number of points wasted, which seems a bit unfair. Falling 1 pt short when you are adding the smallest possible upgrade of 12 points is really quite frustrating. In the old days of 6thEd Ancients, in some tournaments you were allowed to spend over the points as long as the amount over was not enough to buy any upgrade or bases. So, if the smallest amount you need to spend is 6 pts to do anything, then for a 800 pt army you should be able to spend up to 805 pts. Has anyone given any thought to including this in tournaments or even in the rules themselves?

gozerius
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Re: Points frustration

Post by gozerius » Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:12 am

That just raises the bar to N+(b-1). Where you will face armies that nearly always exceed N.
Thracians
Classical Indians
Medieval
-Germans (many flavors), Danes, Low Countries
Burgundians
In progress - Later Hungarians, Grand Moravians

hazelbark
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Re: Points frustration

Post by hazelbark » Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:43 am

Also the difference in FOG vs DBM is 797 points is not a big deal. In DBM those extra points could add to a break point of your command so were more significant. Here to get up to 800 from 797 requires a more complicated shift.

Finally 800 points is a lousy level. Encourage people to try 725 or 850. It help break up the tournament perfect lsit mindset.

NickW
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Re: Points frustration

Post by NickW » Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:08 am

I don't see a problem with facing armies with just a bit more than the points level. I think it makes the lists fairer. (And I think this is especially the case with FOG-R).

I do agree, though, that 800 pts is an annoying level.

kevinj
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Re: Points frustration

Post by kevinj » Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:51 am

I've not found this to be a problem at all, I can normally get an army within a few points and, as Dan has said, it's much less of an impact in Fog than DBM.

Another consideration (for me anyway) is that it adds a significant amount of work for the list checker for no real benefit to the player. On the other hand, for a team competition it wouldn't be a problem to allow the team members to swap their odd points.

philqw78
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Re: Points frustration

Post by philqw78 » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:05 am

What an arse argument. Surely you will find armies better at 807 if the limit is 804, or 659 if the limit is 657.

Or should we have voluntary limits?
phil
putting the arg into argumentative

nikgaukroger
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Re: Points frustration

Post by nikgaukroger » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:30 am

NickW wrote:I'm not sure if this has been raised before,

It has and is only an issue for the terminally obsessive :lol:
Nik Gaukroger

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grahambriggs
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Re: Points frustration

Post by grahambriggs » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:18 am

I find the frustration is that I want the army to do a certain number of things and that takes 830 points. Taking the 30 points out with the minimum compromises can be irritating but it does focus the mind a bit as to what's really needed. That can be a long, drawn out process - my Early Persians are on version 21 and no doubt there'll be 21 more with the new rules.

ShrubMiK
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Re: Points frustration

Post by ShrubMiK » Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:10 pm

You mean you USE THE SAME LIST AGAIN?????

I knew I must be doing something wrong ;)

kevinj
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Re: Points frustration

Post by kevinj » Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:16 pm

You mean you USE THE SAME LIST AGAIN?????
No, he just rewrites it a number of times before use!

Polkovnik
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Re: Points frustration

Post by Polkovnik » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:59 pm

NickW wrote:So often you can be left with a large number of points wasted, which seems a bit unfair.
I've got about 100 army lists saved on my computer that I have used, and I don't think I've ever wasted more than 5 points. That is not a "large number of points wasted".What army list are you looking at that you cannot get the total to within 795 and 800 ?

timmy1
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Re: Points frustration

Post by timmy1 » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:37 pm

I remember one of my early games with Parthian. The quick list in the rules was say 590 points. I was not willing to waste the 10 points and came up with my own 600 point list - had one more BG too boot. It was absolute CARP! It got well and deservedly beaten. The list is what matters not using the number of points exactly.

ravenflight
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Re: Points frustration

Post by ravenflight » Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:45 am

Polkovnik wrote:
NickW wrote:So often you can be left with a large number of points wasted, which seems a bit unfair.
I've got about 100 army lists saved on my computer that I have used, and I don't think I've ever wasted more than 5 points. That is not a "large number of points wasted".What army list are you looking at that you cannot get the total to within 795 and 800 ?

I've not had the problem with FoG:AM, but FoG:R is a LITTLE more prone to it. I find the limit of Infantry battle troops to 6 bases or 6 bases causes an issue of around 45 points. I mean, my list can be at 770 points and can't take a poor or average Regiment, so have to 'take something else'.

I think that's the thing though - generally it's not a case of not being able to make the list you want, not a case of not being able to use the points you're given.

In some cases I find it hard/impossible to create a list I want, so have to do somethig completely different.

BillMc
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Re: Points frustration

Post by BillMc » Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:29 pm

I dont think it is an issue. Just as easy to take a few points under the point limit. The point total, whether it is 800 or 850, just presents the max amount that players have to manage too. I have taken 795 point armies to 800 pts battles. You just have to decide if its worth not using up 5 whole points so that you can get the key units you want, or if you want to give up some key units inorder to max the points by taking other combinations. Its part of the enjoyment of the game in my opinion and the reason we all have multiple lists and bs about them online and at the bar between games. For example, Would it better to only go with 3 generals and get the extra unit, but lose 3 points, or use 4 generals and come out even on points?

Bill

Scrumpy
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Re: Points frustration

Post by Scrumpy » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:23 pm

My frustration is designing 801 pt lists and never 800 :D

ravenflight
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Re: Points frustration

Post by ravenflight » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:18 am

MAYBE we should get 1 point in the rankings for every 10 points you don't spend. I might design a list that has zero points and have a remote chance of winning the comp... only have a chance in a 2 day 4 game comp tho

prb4
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Re: Points frustration

Post by prb4 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:54 am

MAYBE we should get 1 point in the rankings for every 10 points you don't spend. I might design a list that has zero points and have a remote chance of winning the comp... only have a chance in a 2 day 4 game comp tho
The list would be illegal you must have at least two generals!

NickW
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Re: Points frustration

Post by NickW » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:11 pm

philqw78 wrote:What an arse argument. Surely you will find armies better at 807 if the limit is 804, or 659 if the limit is 657.

Or should we have voluntary limits?
I think you completely misunderstood the premise...

NickW
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Re: Points frustration

Post by NickW » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:13 pm

ravenflight wrote: I've not had the problem with FoG:AM, but FoG:R is a LITTLE more prone to it. I find the limit of Infantry battle troops to 6 bases or 6 bases causes an issue of around 45 points. I mean, my list can be at 770 points and can't take a poor or average Regiment, so have to 'take something else'.

I think that's the thing though - generally it's not a case of not being able to make the list you want, not a case of not being able to use the points you're given.

In some cases I find it hard/impossible to create a list I want, so have to do somethig completely different.
yes, it tends to be more a FOG-R problem - I should have posted it there.

ravenflight
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Re: Points frustration

Post by ravenflight » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:36 am

prb4 wrote:
MAYBE we should get 1 point in the rankings for every 10 points you don't spend. I might design a list that has zero points and have a remote chance of winning the comp... only have a chance in a 2 day 4 game comp tho
The list would be illegal you must have at least two generals!

Damn you prb - with you 'rules lawyer' types out there I'll NEVER win a comp :)

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