V2 Hoplites vs Spara Bara

[Eques]

How is this particular match-up playing out under V2?

I'm guessing the Spara Bara now have quite a bit of extra heft with the armour changes and support shooting bonus?

[marty]

I think we may be seeing less offensive spear in general. How they match up against bow with a free LS is only one reason.

Martin

[hazelbark]

How much Offensive Spear had we seen anyway?

Occassional MF ?


But yes Sparabara is greatly improved vs hoplites.

[ravenflight]

How much Offensive Spear had we seen anyway?

Occassional MF ?


But yes Sparabara is greatly improved vs hoplites.

Well, the two/three main armies I run are Syracusan, Viking and Post Viking Scandinavian - possibly why it has been about two years since I've seriously run FoG:AM. Last game I had was a few months ago because of a local comp I wanted to support, and before that... *crickets chirping*

If a troop type like 'offensive spear' is 't seen in good numbers it shows a serious breakage in the rules IMHO. The spear (both offensive & defensive) is one of the few weapons that has stayed from the dawn of time through to the Renaissance period. To me 'no spear armies' is akin to 'no pike and shot' armies in Renaissance.

[philqw78]

The ancients at Britcon was won by and army that had 2 spear BG, 2nd place had 1. 2nd place in medieval had loads of pikes and I think first may have had a single BG but not sure

[pyruse]

The problem with Hoplite armies isn't that they have offensive spear - it's that they have very little else.
This is fine against historical opposition, but one dimensional armies will always struggle in open competition.

[philqw78]

The problem with Hoplite armies isn't that they have offensive spear - it's that they have very little else.
This is fine against historical opposition, but one dimensional armies will always struggle in open competition.

No, slow and one dimensional struggles. It can't capitalise fast enough where it wins, or extract where it fails

[hazelbark]

If a troop type like 'offensive spear' is 't seen in good numbers it shows a serious breakage in the rules IMHO. The spear (both offensive & defensive) is one of the few weapons that has stayed from the dawn of time through to the Renaissance period. To me 'no spear armies' is akin to 'no pike and shot' armies in Renaissance.

Well then it isn't a v2 problem.

What it is a problem is 800 points on a 4x6 which is just some strange Orthodox belief.
Place on a 5x3 or 5x3.5 and the spear have a great role. Also spear is a good a counter to the new trend of undrilled knight lancers.

I do think spear is over priced in game terms.

But just because something was common does not mean it was powerful. There is a serious point that a lot of what is called defensive spear is about the best that soceity could muster for foot troops in quantity.

But looking at their historical opponents they are pretty efficient. Where they have problems in game terms where they meet ahistorical opponents. Are force to manuver greatly are forced to attack to win.

You put Spartans with secure flanks and say the sparabara must rout the spartans or lose the game. The sparabara are going to be hard pressed to assault through Thermopylae pass.

End the 4x6 800 construct I say. Fight more historical match ups.

[ravenflight]

If a troop type like 'offensive spear' is 't seen in good numbers it shows a serious breakage in the rules IMHO. The spear (both offensive & defensive) is one of the few weapons that has stayed from the dawn of time through to the Renaissance period. To me 'no spear armies' is akin to 'no pike and shot' armies in Renaissance.

Well then it isn't a v2 problem.

What it is a problem is 800 points on a 4x6 which is just some strange Orthodox belief.
Place on a 5x3 or 5x3.5 and the spear have a great role. Also spear is a good a counter to the new trend of undrilled knight lancers.

I do think spear is over priced in game terms.

But just because something was common does not mean it was powerful. There is a serious point that a lot of what is called defensive spear is about the best that soceity could muster for foot troops in quantity.

But looking at their historical opponents they are pretty efficient. Where they have problems in game terms where they meet ahistorical opponents. Are force to manuver greatly are forced to attack to win.

You put Spartans with secure flanks and say the sparabara must rout the spartans or lose the game. The sparabara are going to be hard pressed to assault through Thermopylae pass.

End the 4x6 800 construct I say. Fight more historical match ups.

Your comments are well taken Hazelbark, but you say the same thing twice above (IMHO)

1) that spear are over priced; and
2) people don't take them because they are not powerful enough... for the cost (comment added by me).

I think if Oddensive Spear cost 1 point, you would see never ending Hoplite armies.

I'm not advocating that, but pointing out why comment 1 and 2 are related.

In my opinion (and it is JUST my opinion) I feel that FoG kinda got it wrong with how spear (and pike) perform. I've said it before, that in melee, armour on a steady unit of spear is meaningless. For example, a SUPER HEAVY GOTHIC KNIGHT cannot bring his advantage of armour to bear (which bear/bare is the correct one here?) against a hedgehog of spears. He can't get in to attack (unless he's lucky = rolls a 5 or 6) without impaling his horse on the spears. As it stands a knight WILL get advantage of armour over a spearman as they go from disadvantaged to evens.

[pyruse]

Well, if the Super Heavy Knight is facing steady spears, he must break off, so the armour is indeed irrelevant.

[ravenflight]

Well, if the Super Heavy Knight is facing steady spears, he must break off, so the armour is indeed irrelevant.

How do you figure that???

Impact - they charge.
Melee - they get their advantage of armour
JAP - they break off.

[Vespasian28]

In the one outing so far of Spartans vs Persians we have played the Spartans lost every impact( shooting much better now) but managed to grind out a win in melee in two cases out of three. Good news if you are a Persian player.

One of the reasons for Spartans being classified as Superior rather than Elite was that against their historical foes the Superior/spear/armour combo would make mincemeat of the Persians. Taking away one of that trio has certainly reduced the Spartans effectiveness but they still have an edge.

[grahambriggs]

In my experience the Sparabara have improved a little but not so much that they would go looking for this fight. The slight improvement to support shooting combined with losing impact being an automatic -1 on cohesion is useful but not a game changer. Yes, hoplites sometimes disrupt on impact but still quite rare if you set the attack up with generals and rear support. But since the spara are down a POA in melee you tend to have to have a run of luck to do any real damage: win the impact and then disrupt the hops. Then win the melee (more dice but needing 5s) and get the enemy to fail CHT again.

If they don't disrupt the hoplites then they die quickly in the open. It helps that protected spara are no longer double down against armoured hoplites but realistically a single POA is usually enough to give a cohesion test at a -2 or peerhaps even -3 so it won't take long.

[grahambriggs]

The ancients at Britcon was won by and army that had 2 spear BG, 2nd place had 1. 2nd place in medieval had loads of pikes and I think first may have had a single BG but not sure

Surprised people think defensive spear are not good - I find them good value. My Early Crown of Aragon placed 7th in the early period. I took 2x8 undrilled protected DS and an ally with a BG of 12 (8 DS and 4 LF bow to support). The smaller units tended to secure my flanks or die slowly while tying up greater points of enemy while the ally was designed to form deep and take on knights or elephants. Three wide, four deep supported spear with a general and knights on either side were very effective.

They were good value - let down by their betters on horseback generally.

[dave_r]

They were good value - let down by their betters on horseback generally.

That's heresy flatfoot.

BURN THE HERETIC.

[lawrenceg]

The ancients at Britcon was won by and army that had 2 spear BG, 2nd place had 1. 2nd place in medieval had loads of pikes and I think first may have had a single BG but not sure

Surprised people think defensive spear are not good - I find them good value. My Early Crown of Aragon placed 7th in the early period. I took 2x8 undrilled protected DS and an ally with a BG of 12 (8 DS and 4 LF bow to support). The smaller units tended to secure my flanks or die slowly while tying up greater points of enemy while the ally was designed to form deep and take on knights or elephants. Three wide, four deep supported spear with a general and knights on either side were very effective.

They were good value - let down by their betters on horseback generally.

Well, 4 of the top 6 armies at Britcon were Feudal Navarese and Aragonese and no-one using this list finsihed below 6th. It seems to me that there is something remarkable about this list which is not related to the presence or absence of 1 or 2 defensive spear BGs.

Also, aren't defensive spear cheaper than offensive? And they fulfill a different battlefield role, so are not really relevant to the question of Offensive Spear being overpriced. Paying any points at all for something that can never enter combat with anything it can beat, is overpriced. THat was my experience in V1 ( Kyrenean Greeks, mostly HF offensive spear but it has 16 bases of mounted and a fair amount of LF) and also in the one game of V2 that I have played with them.

[philqw78]

The problem with offensive spear, especially armoured, is that most troops do not want to fight it, and they can avoid it. Those that do want to fight them they are not fast enough to get out of the way of.

[hazelbark]

The problem with offensive spear, especially armoured, is that most troops do not want to fight it, and they can avoid it. Those that do want to fight them they are not fast enough to get out of the way of.

The key part is armored and often Superior is hard to come by.

Protected Average is not something people especially tournament tigers would seek out. Its not a game winner against Phalanx and Legion and problably not versus some superior barbarian types. It is quite handy to face off enemy mounted while you win somewhere else with something better. The problem also lies in its points. It ends up being a lot for a troop type that isn't a game winner. Yes a force of Knights could disintegrate on them, but as Phil says, the Knights could almost as easily move off elsewhere.

[gozerius]

I field protected offensive spear in my Low Countries army so I'm familiar with the issue. I find the key is to put down a lot of terrain to cover flanks and reduce maneuver room. Then just plow forward and hope for the best.

[ravenflight]

Yes a force of Knights could disintegrate on them, but as Phil says, the Knights could almost as easily move off elsewhere.

Yes a force of Knights could disintegrate on them (emphasis mine), but probably wont.