Version 3 Errata

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prb4
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Re: Version 3 Errata

Post by prb4 » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:31 pm

Page 64: bottom diagram:
The rule (page 40) states:
"For ease of measuring, the distance moved is taken as a straight line from the starting position to the ending position of the moving front corner"
- so nothing wrong with this diagram.

Page 65: Final Position:
Nothing wrong with this diagram either - for the same reason.
Sorry it has taken me so long to reply, I've been busy.

I understood the statement on page 40 you refer to only applies to the wheel, not the whole move that includes a wheel and a move straight forwards. At least that is how everyone plays it.
If the pictures on Page 64 and 65 are correct and the reason is the statement on page 40 in the normal movement section then this implies to me that normal movement involving a wheel should also be measured using a straight stick.

i.e. I understand from what you have said that a normal move involving a wheel and a straight forward move is measured with a straight stick from the start to the end of the move.

This is not how I or anyone I have ever played has done it but if that is the correct way I will change the way I measure these moves.

I would very much like it if you could confirm that normal moves involving a wheel and a move straight ahead are measured by measuring the distance from starting position front corner to ending position front corner. i.e. the wheel is NOT measured separately from the straight ahead move. (Just for clarity, exactly the same way as the evade is measured in the picture on page 65 titled "Final Position").

Thank you
Peter

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Re: Version 3 Errata

Post by grahambriggs » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:42 pm

prb4 wrote:
Page 64: bottom diagram:
The rule (page 40) states:
"For ease of measuring, the distance moved is taken as a straight line from the starting position to the ending position of the moving front corner"
- so nothing wrong with this diagram.

Page 65: Final Position:
Nothing wrong with this diagram either - for the same reason.
Sorry it has taken me so long to reply, I've been busy.

I understood the statement on page 40 you refer to only applies to the wheel, not the whole move that includes a wheel and a move straight forwards. At least that is how everyone plays it.
If the pictures on Page 64 and 65 are correct and the reason is the statement on page 40 in the normal movement section then this implies to me that normal movement involving a wheel should also be measured using a straight stick.

i.e. I understand from what you have said that a normal move involving a wheel and a straight forward move is measured with a straight stick from the start to the end of the move.

This is not how I or anyone I have ever played has done it but if that is the correct way I will change the way I measure these moves.

I would very much like it if you could confirm that normal moves involving a wheel and a move straight ahead are measured by measuring the distance from starting position front corner to ending position front corner. i.e. the wheel is NOT measured separately from the straight ahead move. (Just for clarity, exactly the same way as the evade is measured in the picture on page 65 titled "Final Position").

Thank you
Peter
I play it as you do Peter, and this is something that hasn't changed from V2 to V3, because P40 only says measure the straight line for the wheel itself. However, you do end up measuring twice, which doubles the measuring error and I don't think I've seen a situation where it's been that relevant.

prb4
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Re: Version 3 Errata

Post by prb4 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:32 am

All I would like clarifying is that normal moves, charges and evades are measured the same way?

Is this the way you and I measure normal moves?
Or is it the way shown for the evade in the picture on page 65 titled "Final Position"?

Thank you
Peter

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Re: Version 3 Errata

Post by grahambriggs » Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:08 pm

prb4 wrote:All I would like clarifying is that normal moves, charges and evades are measured the same way?

Is this the way you and I measure normal moves?
Or is it the way shown for the evade in the picture on page 65 titled "Final Position"?

Thank you
Peter
I measure them all the same way as you do Peter, because P40 only says measure the wheel as straight line, not the wheel and then the straight forward move. i.e. I play it that the diagrams are there for illustrative purposes, are not infallible, and the written rule takes precedence where there is a difference.

On a practical note, while the diagrams are generally useful, particularly to a novice, they are a pain for the re-writing process because you'd need to employ an artist to redo them.

prb4
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Re: Version 3 Errata

Post by prb4 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:24 pm

I am happy with that interpretation, but it needs to be made official and put in the errata. The errata needs to make it clear that the pictures are not correct. To compound this problem Terry has defended the pictures in this thread saying they are correct, which unfortunately still leaves this issue confused.

Graham, for your information in the past I have had a ruling in a BHGS competition that evades are measured differently to normal movement because of the picture on page 65. I really would like some clarity on this issue, I was quite disappointed that version 3 has not clarified this issue at all. It is also quite concerning that there does not seem to be agreement between yourself and Terry on this issue either.

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Re: Version 3 Errata

Post by grahambriggs » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:45 pm

I think Terry is away quite a bit over the next 2/3 weeks Peter. I'll pick it up with him next time we meet.

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Re: Version 3 Errata

Post by terrys » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:46 am

I measure them all the same way as you do Peter, because P40 only says measure the wheel as straight line, not the wheel and then the straight forward move. i.e. I play it that the diagrams are there for illustrative purposes, are not infallible, and the written rule takes precedence where there is a difference.
I'm happy to go with this - Most players play it that way.
I'll add a clarification to the errata.

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Re: Version 3 Errata

Post by madaxeman » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:16 pm

This weeks changes to the QRS and tournament scoresheet have now been uploaded to the BHGS website...
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Re: Version 3 Errata

Post by AlexandersChiefEunuch » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:51 am

I may be missing something fundamental (and obvious) but try as I might I can't see it. As written the first bullet point under SECOND MOVES on page 73 seems to make it illegal to move closer than 5 MU to battle troops. The relevant sentence says "Neither the 1st or 2nd move can start, end or go within...5 MUs of any other enemy..."

Presumably this should only refer to 2nd moves ?
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Re: Version 3 Errata

Post by petedalby » Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:20 pm

I think what it is saying, is that if you begin your move within 5 MU of enemy battle troops - you cannot do a 2nd move - even if your first move takes you outside of 5 MU.

At least that is how I read it.
Pete

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Re: Version 3 Errata

Post by AlexandersChiefEunuch » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:39 pm

Pete

I think that is indeed probably what it means...but it isn't what it says. It clearly says 1st moves can't start or end closer than 5MU.

Put yourself in the place of someone entirely new to FOG. I think you'd struggle to find the right meaning from that sentence. Its always difficult to proofread a ruleset 100% effectively when you're familiar with what the rule actually is. :D

Martyn
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Re: Version 3 Errata

Post by petedalby » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:13 pm

But it's in a section headed 'Second Moves'. It describes the criteria for when a BG may make a 2nd move.

The rules for normal moves begin on page 36. But I guess we all read things differently as you say.
Pete

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Re: Version 3 Errata

Post by AlexandersChiefEunuch » Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:10 pm

Pete

Having re-read the offending bullet point for the umpteenth time I am now gobbling down a large portion of humble pie. Reading the bullet point in the context of the preceding sentencd (rather than as a stand alone statement) it now makes perfect sense.

In my own defence I did preface my original post by saying I might have.missed something fundamental...and clearly I had done just that. :oops:
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Re: Version 3 Errata

Post by petedalby » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:10 am

No humble pie required Martyn. The Forum exists to ask questions. We are all probably guilty of just reading a small section of the rules and missing the the larger meaning on occasion.

Happy I could help.
Pete

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Re: Version 3 Errata - and all that

Post by MikeHorah » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:48 pm

I have played FOG(Nos 1 ,2 and now 3) but not in competitions. I find this version to be much better written , clearer and more concise with some good not to say clever, tweaks and changes . There are errata– but they are dealt with pretty swiftly and far quicker than in the pre internet days and look how much game software needs fixes!

I do wish however that print publishers (not writers as they have no control) would allow paragraph and subparagraph numbers like board games rules - and provide a code to download an eye candy free version. Do we really need pretty pics to use the rules? They get in the way. These are handbooks or manuals not picture books. Diagrams sure. Need to be more practical as a layout and print design. Most rules etc fail in this regard.

There is still the problem of the inherent limitations of all miniatures rules as simulations (for all I must have 50,000 plus 15mm and 25/28mm figures) – and an old whinge of mine - around having such a wide period as 3000 BCE to 1486 CE. Still too much clustering round the mean of a bell curve for some aspects and in some eras it is still a bit dull or " samey" for my taste – the chariot era pre 1100. Which is not well modelled anywhere and that is hard to do I admit . Then there is the mainstream middle ages 11th- 13th Centuries as ( though not “bastard feudalism” as the late 14th /15th century is sometimes called).But I will hold fire until I see the third volume of lists . Good lists can convert average quality rules to superior -and their absence or otherwise the reverse.

For some eras I think it does very well - the core 600BCE - 600BCE -West of S Asia. I seldom fight armies against each other that are not roughly contemporary and roughly in the same region. And there is nothing to stop anyone from making adjustments for non comp games creating ways of covering perceived gaps eg for the medieval era where I like to specify “Battles” as such and adapt the C3 element for them and for “ retinues “ or mesnies”.

The struggle since the early 70’s for a more consistent coherent payable set of rules for the AM period continues and the FOG(AM) approach makes I believe a pretty good contribution - up there with WRG when I first threw dice 40 years ago .

I observe that AM gamers, not least some competition gamers, can come across as a tad febrile ,flighty, fashion led and flirty, only too ready to try some new offer like wine buffs never satisfied with a wine they like and always trying new ones. Stand back and ask about the era you want to model. Does it have the look and feel of what you read ( assuming you do of course!)? If so why change?

Anyway thanks and respect Terry and Nik - a lot of hard work for not much reward on these pages I sometimes think.

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Re: Version 3 Errata

Post by madaxeman » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:48 pm

This just posted to the BHGS website :

Jonathan Houchin has just posted a comment on your blog post, FoGAM v3 - Files section updated:

"I think the QRS doesn't include the reductions for Bw* shooting in support during Impact as indicated on the Errata."
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Re: Version 3 Errata

Post by petedalby » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:38 pm

Another one for the QRS please. Skirmishers can deploy up to 18MU from their base edge - not 15MU.
Pete

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Re: Version 3 Errata

Post by terrys » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:40 am

Another one for the QRS please. Skirmishers can deploy up to 18MU from their base edge - not 15MU.
Thanks for raising this - I'll update it and send it to Tim.
"I think the QRS doesn't include the reductions for Bw* shooting in support during Impact as indicated on the Errata."
I think this is covered by the entries:

IMPACT:
Support shooting <> Medium foot against any <> 1 rank of foot with ...Bw* .... in 2nd rank .... behind non-charging foot in combat
COMBAT DICE:
Medium foot with bow* <> 1 dice per 2 bases if 1st 3 shooting ranks* in effective range.

*The confusion may be in the definition of "Shooting ranks" - which is only the 2nd rank for support shooting.

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Re: Version 3 Errata

Post by petedalby » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:07 pm

Sorry Terry - a new question.

Page 21 - Commanders cannot affect LF close combat re-rolls. Is this intended to include LF support shooting?

Thanks
Pete

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Re: Version 3 Errata

Post by terrys » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:38 pm

Page 21 - Commanders cannot affect LF close combat re-rolls. Is this intended to include LF support shooting?
LF support shooting receives the same re-roll as the rest of the BG. Either the BG as a whole is upgraded or none of it is. - A single BG can't have more than one quality level.
The wording is supposed to confirm that a BG of light foot can't be upgraded because: (as stated on page 97)
"A commander can be declared to be fighting in the front rank of a single battle group in close combat (other than LIGHT FOOT, scythed chariots and artillery)."

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