First V3 Game

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petedalby
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First V3 Game

Post by petedalby » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:12 pm

Finally got around to playing my first V3 game this week. The core systems are all very familiar and all involved enjoyed the game. Most of the changes are relatively small but together they add up in a positive way.

I liked the alternate terrain placement. I think we may see more terrain on the table which could result in some non-games if armies are quite dissimilar but that happened under V2 as well.

I also enjoyed the variable start. Commanders have to be deployed with a view to taking first move.

HF moving 4 MU is a definite bonus. They can now get into the game more quickly and are less easy to avoid. Marching / rallying to just outside 5 & 3 MU for battle troops and skirmishers respectively gives more manoeuvrability.

I particularly enjoyed having 3 dice at impact. Charging with disrupted troops is seriously risky. We saw far less re-rolls due to Superior vs Superior combat which makes outcomes less predictable. That has to be a positive. 4 base BGs will struggle as the death-roll takes effect before cohesion and proved decisive on several occasions. Generals are more vulnerable but I still struggled to kill any!

Armies were smaller with more average troops and less superiors but we still needed the full playing time as we got to grips with the subtleties of the rule changes. I suspect we will get quicker with practice.

So all in all a very positive experience. A definite thumbs up from me and looking forward to my first V3 competition at Belgarum in February.
Pete

philqw78
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Re: First V3 Game

Post by philqw78 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:41 pm

My main thought after 4 games is too much terrain. Me and Bob have had to throw the game killing stuff off
phil
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petedalby
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Re: First V3 Game

Post by petedalby » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:35 am

My main thought after 4 games is too much terrain.
So choose less of it?

Under V1 & V2 the minimum terrain choices was 6. Under V3 it is 4.
If I wish to minimise terrain and my opponent wants to maximise it, or vice versa: Under V1 & V2 we would have 8 pieces. It is the same number in V3.
The maximum terrain choices in V1 & V2 was 10. In V3 it is 12.

Although to be fair you could previously choose a road which was effectively 1 less piece but otherwise it is pretty similar?
Pete

philqw78
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Re: First V3 Game

Post by philqw78 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:24 pm

If I wish to minimise terrain I can choose a compulsory + 1 other, open or uneven hopefully
If I have the sort of army that wants manoeuvre space I will almost certainly end up choosing terrain from my opponents list as my initiative will be higher

My opponent will then get 6 pieces of rough or difficult as with my minimum choice I have no way of blocking his terrain. In the odds I will be able to remove 1 of those pieces 5 in six games
So minimum 7 pieces of terrain for an army that wants to sit in terrain.
Western Han looks even better
phil
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petedalby
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Re: First V3 Game

Post by petedalby » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:28 pm

Western Han does look like it will take some beating. Using open spaces or gentle hills will hopefully restrict some of your opponents terrain?
Pete

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Re: First V3 Game

Post by philqw78 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:33 pm

Gentle hills are no good to a manoeuvre force, but great for a sit in terrain defender. The enemy has an equal chance of it being on his side, then its as bad, or worse, than rough going for the attacker
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Re: First V3 Game

Post by hazelbark » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:36 pm

philqw78 wrote:Gentle hills are no good to a manoeuvre force, but great for a sit in terrain defender. The enemy has an equal chance of it being on his side, then its as bad, or worse, than rough going for the attacker
This problem with gentle hills has existed in too many rule sets and is not a FOG version anything problem. The logical tournament gamer reaction is what phil describes. (How he blundered into logic we will assume is a New Years miracle)

But hills of some note were a common battlefield feature. You can explain them away as only the REALLY significant ones are represented by the POA. But I don't care for that ex post justification that many rule sets make. On the whole I wish rule authors broadly speaking made them both more common and less impactful. For example in FOG make it a cohesion test benefit for being uphill would have been nice. I suggested that in the early v2 process but alas.

A +1 cohesion for being on a hill and maybe even another +1 for being uphill of all opponents while in melee would be nice. Then you could put really weak but large units on hills and hope they hold out while better enemy can chop through them. You would still have people avoiding the hill pick even then. So into the scrap heap it goes.

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Re: First V3 Game

Post by grahambriggs » Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:21 pm

philqw78 wrote:My main thought after 4 games is too much terrain. Me and Bob have had to throw the game killing stuff off
Take some Auxilia?

philqw78
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Re: First V3 Game

Post by philqw78 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:02 am

grahambriggs wrote:
philqw78 wrote:My main thought after 4 games is too much terrain. Me and Bob have had to throw the game killing stuff off
Take some Auxilia?
Or just consign a load of armies to the bin
phil
putting the arg into argumentative

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Re: First V3 Game

Post by terrys » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:00 am

Western Han does look like it will take some beating. Using open spaces or gentle hills will hopefully restrict some of your opponents terrain?
Certainly, you can create and army that can sit in terrain (if you get enough in your own half). They won't be fighting in tropical as they normally do.
They'll have to deploy caltrops in their own half of the table (effectively).
After that they'll be a POA down at impact against lancers, IF and pikes (with one additional dice on 5's vs lancers and 6's vs foot).
So if you wan't an army that can draw - then choose W. Han and sit in your own half of the table.


Terrain hasn't been a problem in any of the games I've player so far.
In V2 is you didn't want terrain and you opponent did you'd choose 3 (or 1 really if you take 2 open) and he'd choose 6 (a double compulsory and 4 others).
In V3 you would get the same selection except that he'd have a single compulsory and 5 others.

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Re: First V3 Game

Post by philqw78 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:48 am

Don't know what tropical has to do with anything?? Agricultural gets a huge amount of terrain now. The only problem comes if they win initiative against an army that only has Steppe. Very few of those. Chance of losing initiative against them even less

Crossbow are on plus against most lancers, so an extra dice on evens.

3 dice at minus plus 1 at evens gives 1.5 hits. 3 dice at single plus gives 1.5 hits. An even combat after the cavalry have been shot. You don't need the PO. A bit of cheap rear support, which this army has plenty of, mitigates.

There's no need to sit in terrain. You can use it to get around your enemy, normally at least 6 pieces will stay on table, Han's 6 + 1 from their enemy and 1 removed.

The MF is was good in V2 and could hold in the open for some time. Now it is better.

I have the fear that Mr Evans after losing the Dom Rom to rule and list amendments has now found its replacement. He used it more than capably in V2, they are better in V3. (He is a good player and shouldn't be punished for his freakish ways. Nobody else could do what he could do with the Dom Rom)

IF could be a problem, drilled MF can stay out of trouble if necessary, but pikes will lose their flanks before they can make any headway into the Han.

The main thing that gets me though is they weren't supposed to be able to stand up to mounted in the open. Most of the mounted at that time are bow sword protected. Evens impact plus melee after a brief firefight. Han will win
phil
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grahambriggs
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Re: First V3 Game

Post by grahambriggs » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:10 pm

An option for, say, superior armoured lancers would be to charge them in single rank. On a frontage of three an average result would be to beat them 5-4 at impact. The Han are likely to lose a pole arm base and have a cohesion test at -1 (3 minuses, 2 plusses). If they do disrupt the melee will be pretty even. If not, the cavalry will bounce off and get a better charge in. I agree it's not great for the cavalry but there are options there.

The main problem I see for the Han is that they won't automatically get first move. They normally take a TC CiC so that's 50:50 at best and likely to be worse.

While pikes will still have flank issues bear in mind they also get to do their thing more quickly. If they get first move that's 8MU advantage straight away. The Han have few skirmishers so the pike should get in some more long moves. With the reduction in the proximity rules to 5MU, that's a further saving of a move to get into contact. Win the impact, take a base off, test on a -1 and they can break through quickly.

philqw78
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Re: First V3 Game

Post by philqw78 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:22 pm

I wouldn't field an army without an IC now due to the first move. Doubt anybody will, fighting generals die too easily so IC & FC or TC
phil
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Re: First V3 Game

Post by dave_r » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:38 am

The Han foot will be in 8's, so losing a front rank base doesn't hurt them.

They are evens in melee and minus at impact against pike, but do have rear rank shooting. So will have nine dice on a 5 + three dice on a 6 against nine dice on a four. They should lose 4.5 - 3.5.

Dice don't do halves though... So they could lose 5-3 or draw 4-4.

The Han will be much wider than the pike so will likely have overlaps on both ends.

They will also shoot the pike on the way in. Maybe ineffectively, but there's always a chance.

I'd have taken the Han to godendag if I could have
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philqw78
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Re: First V3 Game

Post by philqw78 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:51 am

Well it would have been all Han then, unfortunately its all pike now.
phil
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petedalby
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Re: First V3 Game

Post by petedalby » Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:08 pm

I'd have taken the Han to godendag if I could have
I look forward to seeing them at Belgarum then.
Pete

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Re: First V3 Game

Post by hazelbark » Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:40 pm

So watching the discussion on Han.
Does the advantages apply to other mixed foot armies?

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Re: First V3 Game

Post by grahambriggs » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:16 pm

dave_r wrote:The Han foot will be in 8's, so losing a front rank base doesn't hurt them.

They are evens in melee and minus at impact against pike, but do have rear rank shooting. So will have nine dice on a 5 + three dice on a 6 against nine dice on a four. They should lose 4.5 - 3.5.

Dice don't do halves though... So they could lose 5-3 or draw 4-4.

The Han will be much wider than the pike so will likely have overlaps on both ends.

They will also shoot the pike on the way in. Maybe ineffectively, but there's always a chance.

I'd have taken the Han to godendag if I could have
I blame Terry.

The only variety I've seen have been in 6s.

I'd quite fancy Romans legions against them now, or a big warband army. Or the Norse Irish. The changes to impact make these more difficult opponents for the Han, with the support shooting being only 1 dice in 4 and at a minus. Plus warbands will be rerolling 1s.

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Re: First V3 Game

Post by grahambriggs » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:17 pm

philqw78 wrote:Well it would have been all Han then, unfortunately its all pike now.
Surprised there aren't any Romans

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Re: First V3 Game

Post by philqw78 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:23 pm

petedalby wrote:
I'd have taken the Han to godendag if I could have
I look forward to seeing them at Belgarum then.
Taking Thracians Pete? You seem to been keen on sorting the list out
phil
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