First V3 Game

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philqw78
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Re: First V3 Game

Post by philqw78 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:28 pm

hazelbark wrote:So watching the discussion on Han.
Does the advantages apply to other mixed foot armies?
No, Han now get polearm instead of HW. In effect count as LtSp at impact and like HW in melee, but only reduce 1 better level of armour

Which gives the question: If they are fighting at a single minus already how many levels of armour greater give the m a double minus, enemy double plus. Troops not using polearm must be bettered by two levels. Do those using polearm need to be bettered by three levels
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Re: First V3 Game

Post by philqw78 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:30 pm

grahambriggs wrote: I blame Terry.

The only variety I've seen have been in 6s.

I'd quite fancy Romans legions against them now, or a big warband army. Or the Norse Irish. The changes to impact make these more difficult opponents for the Han, with the support shooting being only 1 dice in 4 and at a minus. Plus warbands will be rerolling 1s.
Those armies were already difficult for the Han. The Han has got better against everything else though
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Re: First V3 Game

Post by grahambriggs » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:38 pm

philqw78 wrote:
hazelbark wrote:So watching the discussion on Han.
Does the advantages apply to other mixed foot armies?
No, Han now get polearm instead of HW. In effect count as LtSp at impact and like HW in melee, but only reduce 1 better level of armour

Which gives the question: If they are fighting at a single minus already how many levels of armour greater give the m a double minus, enemy double plus. Troops not using polearm must be bettered by two levels. Do those using polearm need to be bettered by three levels
Believe so

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Re: First V3 Game

Post by terrys » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:45 am

Which gives the question: If they are fighting at a single minus already how many levels of armour greater give the m a double minus, enemy double plus. Troops not using polearm must be bettered by two levels. Do those using polearm need to be bettered by three levels
See page 95 in the Melee POAs section.
Better armour: "Note that against Pole arms 2 levels of armour advantage is required for a single POA, with 3 levels required to upgrade a single POA to a double POA."

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Re: First V3 Game

Post by terrys » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:14 am

Those armies were already difficult for the Han. The Han has got better against everything else though
I don't see that at all.

They are slightly worse against foot - because their 2nd rank shooting now only hits on a '6'

Against mounted they are only better IF you never took caltrops before. - and all the Han I've ever faced took them.
They now have to deploy their caltrops in the first 3 moves (and I think we've been very generous in allowing them the 3 moves !)
- after that they must stay where they are or offer a target to mounted with lance or light spear (or chariots)

Assuming the mounted are not cataphracts and not in single rank it's 3 dice at 5 plus 1 at 4's against 3 dice at 4 (i.e. about 50:50)
This is not as good as the 3 dice at 4 against 3 dice at 5 they used to get (when caltrops have been placed).

The problem with Han was always the fact that you couldn't approach them with mounted because they could always place their caltrops as soon as you get into charge reach.
In effect they could push enemy mounted off the table. They now behave more historically.

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Re: First V3 Game

Post by hazelbark » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:02 pm

Is caltrops a new thing or just your way of describing portable obstacles?

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Re: First V3 Game

Post by philqw78 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:30 pm

Portable Obtacles

Charging out of terrain to get an evens impact against bow cavalry is not historical, but they can now do it. Especially since being almost always armoured they will be fighting the mêlée at plus against their historical opponents
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Re: First V3 Game

Post by terrys » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:25 pm

Charging out of terrain to get an evens impact against bow cavalry is not historical, but they can now do it. Especially since being almost always armoured they will be fighting the mêlée at plus against their historical opponents
Their historical enemy (when not fighting civil wars) is Early Eastern Steppe Horse Cultures - which will be a mix of lancers and bow/sword cavalry.
The lancers are armoured and the bow protected/unprotected. So you're about 50% correct.

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Re: First V3 Game

Post by nikgaukroger » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:29 pm

Not for Han, Terry - the Lancers don't come in until after them. The Western Han will have Protected and Eastern Han Armoured enemy best equipped cavalry to face.
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Re: First V3 Game

Post by nikgaukroger » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:37 pm

I would, however, point out that the later Warring States manual that talks about issues with foot against mounted (which was a significant factor in the MF classification) talks about chariots and cavalry - i.e. a combination - and that whilst the Han did have problems with steppe cavalry they were not just run over by them.
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Re: First V3 Game

Post by philqw78 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:57 pm

In the time frame of warring states nomads are at best protected and nobody gets lances, so I'm about 100% correct since there are no eastern Han
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Re: First V3 Game

Post by terrys » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:15 am

In the time frame of warring states nomads are at best protected and nobody gets lances, so I'm about 100% correct since there are no eastern Han
OK - It's me getting BC/AD mixed up - it's an age thing.

I still think they're not as good as under V2 - being slightly worse against foot - and definitely worse against armoured mounted with lance and light spear.
I guess time will tell - looking forward to seeing you use them though Phil - let us know how you get on !

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Re: First V3 Game

Post by dave_r » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:22 am

terrys wrote:
In the time frame of warring states nomads are at best protected and nobody gets lances, so I'm about 100% correct since there are no eastern Han
OK - It's me getting BC/AD mixed up - it's an age thing.

I still think they're not as good as under V2 - being slightly worse against foot - and definitely worse against armoured mounted with lance and light spear.
I guess time will tell - looking forward to seeing you use them though Phil - let us know how you get on !
On a two base frontage. Lancer cavalry used to be double plus, re-rollingones and twos. Result very likely four hits.

The Chinese would have for dice on a five and two on a three. Likely result three hits.

V3.0. lancers are on a single plus with six dice. Re-rolling ones. Result 3 or 4 hits.

Chinese have eight dice on a five . Likely result 3 hits.

So instead of losing 4-3, they have a 50% chance of drawing and if they insert a general will definitely draw.

How are they worse?
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Re: First V3 Game

Post by nikgaukroger » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:57 pm

FWIW when updating the Warring States/Western Han list to v3 I thought it had probably improved a bit due to the Pole Arm, but not by that much.

Of course, in the world of "The Hyperbole Twins" everything is utterly great or utterly dross so we shouldn't expect any objective view from them :lol:

IMO the test will be how it performs in the hands of the middling to poor players, and that will only come over time.

No doubt something in Book 2 will also generate this sort of heat from them - so we can look forward to that ... :?
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Re: First V3 Game

Post by philqw78 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:38 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:FWIW when updating the Warring States/Western Han list to v3 I thought it had probably improved a bit due to the Pole Arm, but not by that much.

Of course, in the world of "The Hyperbole Twins" everything is utterly great or utterly dross so we shouldn't expect any objective view from them :lol:

IMO the test will be how it performs in the hands of the middling to poor players, and that will only come over time.

No doubt something in Book 2 will also generate this sort of heat from them - so we can look forward to that ... :?
Unfortunately its Mr Evans' favourite army since you hobbled Dom Rom. If you allow the Dom Rom to run again at least he will have a choice of what to beat everybody with!
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Re: First V3 Game

Post by nikgaukroger » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:57 pm

Quite a few changes to the Dominate Roman - but no 4 base BGs for the Legionarii/Auxilia.
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Re: First V3 Game

Post by terrys » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:42 pm

On a two base frontage. Lancer cavalry used to be double plus, re-rollingones and twos. Result very likely four hits.

The Chinese would have for dice on a five and two on a three. Likely result three hits.

V3.0. lancers are on a single plus with six dice. Re-rolling ones. Result 3 or 4 hits.

Chinese have eight dice on a five . Likely result 3 hits.

So instead of losing 4-3, they have a 50% chance of drawing and if they insert a general will definitely draw.

How are they worse?
They are worse because they don't carry Portable Defences (Caltrops) that they can place as soon as mounted get into charge range (with a CinC that's a 5+)
Certainly not after the first 3 moves, and they can't pick them back up again once placed.
When behind PDs they are a +POA up both at impact and in melee

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Re: First V3 Game

Post by philqw78 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:29 pm

PO weren't all that. Mounted move to just outside charge range. Chinese put down PO. Mounted walk away.
They were a good means of fixing the Chinese in place
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Re: First V3 Game

Post by petedalby » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:37 pm

Mounted move to just outside charge range. Chinese put down PO.
Unlikely....why place POs whilst the cav are out range? - didn't happen. It will be interesting to see how many players use Han at Belgarum.

I'm one of 4 going from Sarisbury Green and there's not a single Han amongst us.
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Re: First V3 Game

Post by philqw78 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:30 pm

why place POs whilst the cav are out range? -
Because if you move the Chinese into charge range you cannot put down the PO in that turn so will be immediately charged without them.
The mounted just need to sit and wait until you do. Then leave something within 6

Am I the only one who plays this game

This weekend is a very defined theme. There will be Chinese, but since you are taking Thracians its not a great choice. Also there are no HA troops so Chinese cost effectives is not as good
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