28mm vs 15mm

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Strategiser
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28mm vs 15mm

Post by Strategiser » Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:09 pm

Dear Commanders,

Happy New Year!

Just wanted to get your suggestions on the following. I am just about to start collecting my first Napoleonic minis (have none at the moment!) and am currently evaluating my options between 28mm and 15mm. Here's what I think so far, but please do let me know what you think based on your experiences:

28mm:

PROS: beautiful; easier to paint.

CONS: more expensive; needs more space both in terms of storage and the playing table size (8' by 5' as per the rules recommendation).

15mm:

PROS: much cheaper; requires less space both for storage and playing (6' by 4' as per the rules recommendation).

CONS: not as pretty; difficult to paint.

Any other thoughts? Thanks in advance!

deadtorius
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Re: 28mm vs 15mm

Post by deadtorius » Sat Jan 03, 2015 5:29 pm

Strategiser
It comes down to personal preference I think. I don't game in 15mm in any period, I chose to do 25mm originally, 28mm now, when I built my first army. I have never really enjoyed playing 15mm games. I am used to the bigger figures and the longer ranges and moves, and I think they look way better on the table. No offense to the 15mm players out there but that is my own opinion. As for cost depending on which army you are doing, Russian, Prussian, Austrian, British or French, you can get those figures in plastic for line infantry. I think some have said a box of plastic is almost equivalent to a bag of 15's, but I am not sure. If you go British or French you can also get cavalry and some artillery in plastic. If you go with the other armies all your cavalry and artillery and some other specialist figs will be metal and yes it is not cheap. Depending on where you are in the world you could look at getting them through a store, thats what I do it saves on the outrageous costs of shipping some manufacturers want to send it from England to North America, 50% of order. I usually buy about $300.00 at a time and I get shipping free from the store owner so it all works in the end. It took me about a year to get my Austrian army up and running in 28mm. I was lucky I had old 20mm plastic Napoleonics armies that we used at first slowly replacing them with 28mm units as they got painted. I pulled them out of the boxes and decided, no way am I going to even try to paint more of this stuff, I am going to 28mm. They looked good but just too small and my eyes are not what they used to be when I first painted them. Now soft plastic is much cheaper and you have access to a lot more figs than I did at that time, but its a size issue again. We have been playing since the rules first released and I now have an Austrian army, still needs cuirassier, and a Russian army, needs cuirassier and a few more infantry and artillery to be painted, and for 1813 some Prussians I have yet to get out of the box.
Hope that ramble helped a bit.

For plastic manufacturers check Victrix, Perry Miniatures, and Warlord. Perry also has a large range of metal figures. Warlord has a smaller range of metal that they carry. Also you might want to look at Hat for plastic figures, not as nicely sculpted as the others but they do carry Bavarians in plastic and some other specialized figures as well.

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Re: 28mm vs 15mm

Post by Strategiser » Sat Jan 03, 2015 5:56 pm

Deadtorius, many thanks indeed! This is very helpful!

One more question: is the terrain (and its various types) widely available for 28mm? If so, which would be the best manufacturers to buy from? Any website suggestions would be much appreciated.

Many thanks again!

deadtorius
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Re: 28mm vs 15mm

Post by deadtorius » Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:45 pm

I use 15mm buildings myself. They take up less space on the building terrain feature and don't actually look that odd to be honest. You can fit a small unit inside the building footprint and keep the model there. We made all our own terrain except for trees which are from Woodland Scenics, model railroad company. Battleground I think its called makes 28mm terrain. If you want some big stuff Warlord makes a big Waterloo piece. I think it would work better for a skirmish game myself. I have seen plenty of resin buildings etc at conventions but not sure who makes them. Even older looking WW2 buildings would work as Europe has so many old buildings.
Not as extensive a list but hope it helps.

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Re: 28mm vs 15mm

Post by Strategiser » Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:54 pm

Thanks again!

deadtorius
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Re: 28mm vs 15mm

Post by deadtorius » Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:48 pm

If you are in Canada try contacting North Bay games and Hobbies, thats who I order through. He has a distributor deal with Perry Miniatures and can get you the rest of the stuff as well. Also you could try J&M miniatures.
If not in Canada... guess you might want to try someone else...

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Re: 28mm vs 15mm

Post by Strategiser » Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:08 am

Am based in the UK, but many thanks for the info in any case. Appreciated!

Sarmaticus
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Re: 28mm vs 15mm

Post by Sarmaticus » Mon Jan 05, 2015 2:45 pm

There are plenty of suppliers of 28mm buildings; often pre-coloured laser cut kits like these http://www.4ground.co.uk/Default.aspx?page=284 . I just did a Google search for 28mm wargames buildings and then was the first hit. There are ablot more.

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Re: 28mm vs 15mm

Post by MDH » Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:59 pm

Strategiser wrote:Dear Commanders,

Happy New Year!

Just wanted to get your suggestions on the following. I am just about to start collecting my first Napoleonic minis (have none at the moment!) and am currently evaluating my options between 28mm and 15mm. Here's what I think so far, but please do let me know what you think based on your experiences:

28mm:

PROS: beautiful; easier to paint.

CONS: more expensive; needs more space both in terms of storage and the playing table size (8' by 5' as per the rules recommendation).

15mm:


PROS: much cheaper; requires less space both for storage and playing (6' by 4' as per the rules recommendation).

CONS: not as pretty; difficult to paint.

Any other thoughts? Thanks in advance!
If you do opt for 25/28 mm you could do worse than start with Perry's for metals ( they do plastics too of course.) They are more like a true 25mm than a 28mm and the metallurgy is very good indeed as well as the sculpting. Their range is expanding all the time. So far 1809-1815 however. Calpe miniatures probably make the best 1812-1815 Prussian 28mm, great for research and accuracy. Metal a bit soft, but not brittle, but I have had no breakages of muskets bayonets or swords. Peter Fredericks has made them a labour of love. You can construct units from his range with hardly a single figure duplicated in a unit and his command pieces/anecdotal story groups are just amazing.

I would steer clear of Old Glory 25mm as the bayonets and swords are too easy to break off .Brittle metal. Nor would I go for the old Hincliffe range for all there are some lovely pieces for much the same reason. Front rank good and robust with a reasonable variety, Elite are good value for money and good quality but their unit deals are large for FOG(N) especially where cavalry and guns are concerned and their figures are big 28mm.

Foundry -mixed reviews from me.I have some nice late Portuguese from them but they are clearly not made by the same chap as the rest ( One of the Perry's I bet!) - they are slimmer and proper 25mm whereas many of the others are much more 28mm in size - some nice some a bit dull.

Elite is one of the few 25/28mm makers that do earlier figures -1805 Russians, 1806 Prussians, Pre 1812 Saxons, pre 1800 Austrians, French in bicornes for 1805-06. ( For pre 1812 French Carabiniers I think I got them either from Front Rank or Foundry.) Eureka do Tyrolean Revolt types but they are quite dear and you do need rather a lot! Now if only someone would do Tyroleans in plastic..... 8)

Maybe, if you decide to go for in 25mm, kick off with plastics for the infantry and many of the cavalry , of which there are a good few providers, and use metals for guns and commanders and to supplement the plastics or for the less common types eg Hungarian Insurrectio infantry ( Perry do them,but as far as I know, no one else ) .

To store all my 25mms I started using box files then once I had a dedicated wargames room ( a purpose built cabin) I bought multi drawer steel cabinets which are also deep enough ( eg for lancers) which then formed the base for my table top .

But then I have been gaming for over 40 years, no kids, and never smoked nor owned a car- so I have had plenty of spare for " tin" :D

In 15mm I reckon AB miniatures are the best followed by Battle Honours for this era but my sense is that in 15mm there is not quite the same range and variety available as in 25/28m , unlike 15mm for Ancient and medieval where I think the two scales are pretty well and equally served.

But that may simply be because I have not looked as much at 15mms for post 1800 Napoleonics , as I confine my 15mm to the 1790's period (long story) and use 25/28mm for post 1800 - of which I have well over 20,000.

There are some really nice 15mm buildings around for Spain and Italy which I got just so I could do the 1790's in Italy .I got some quite cheap buildings 25mm at Salute a few years back, European make already painted . The MDF stuff coming out is good.

You could look at 10mm of course...... :shock:

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Re: 28mm vs 15mm

Post by Strategiser » Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:26 pm

Many thanks for the detailed feedback! This is great!

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Re: 28mm vs 15mm

Post by Strategiser » Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:10 am

One more question gents.

Given that the recommended table size for 28mm is 8' by 5', how big of a factor is this for the game (based on your experiences)? My current table size (that I have played other wargames on) is 6' by 4', which is the recommended size for 15mm in FOG:N. Would the game be negatively affected if I play on a 6' by 4' table using 28mm minis and terrain? How about if I were to use MUs given for the 15mm scale (i.e. 1MU = 1 inch for 28mm, as opposed to 1.5 inches)?

I suppose there is always the option of playing on the floor but, given the length of time required to play the game, I would certainly try to avoid this (if possible).

Thanks!

deadtorius
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Re: 28mm vs 15mm

Post by deadtorius » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:00 am

We started on a 4X8 table. We found the 2 turn restriction put the attacker almost on top of the defender by turn 2 so dropped it to a single turn of not being able to leave the deployment area. Your terrain will end up much closer so you will likely get a rather full table. When we went to a 5X8 table it changed a lot. Artillery may not be able to shoot quite as soon as before, the terrain is more spread out. The extra deployment area gives the defender a deeper rear than before.
One of the posters here on the forums has based 28mm figs on the 15mm bases and uses the 15mm MUs, he says it works great. When FOG was originally launched as the ancient game it was all based on 1" MUs. It was after a year or so a group suggested 40mm MUs for the 28mm figs as there was a definite difference in how the game worked with both scales. The 15mm troops being able to maneuver more than the 28mm figs. With FOG R the 40mm Mus were introduced and have been carried on into FOG N.
You might want to use the smaller bases with the smaller table or keep your armies down to 800 points or less with the smaller table size and 28mm basing. If playing friendly games it makes no difference which you use, if you want to go into tournaments you will need proper sized bases.

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Re: 28mm vs 15mm

Post by Strategiser » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:58 am

As always, thanks for the helpful advice, deadtorius! Much appreciated!

MDH
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Re: 28mm vs 15mm

Post by MDH » Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:02 am

deadtorius wrote:We started on a 4X8 table. We found the 2 turn restriction put the attacker almost on top of the defender by turn 2 so dropped it to a single turn of not being able to leave the deployment area. Your terrain will end up much closer so you will likely get a rather full table. When we went to a 5X8 table it changed a lot. Artillery may not be able to shoot quite as soon as before, the terrain is more spread out. The extra deployment area gives the defender a deeper rear than before.
One of the posters here on the forums has based 28mm figs on the 15mm bases and uses the 15mm MUs, he says it works great. When FOG was originally launched as the ancient game it was all based on 1" MUs. It was after a year or so a group suggested 40mm MUs for the 28mm figs as there was a definite difference in how the game worked with both scales. The 15mm troops being able to maneuver more than the 28mm figs. With FOG R the 40mm Mus were introduced and have been carried on into FOG N.
You might want to use the smaller bases with the smaller table or keep your armies down to 800 points or less with the smaller table size and 28mm basing. If playing friendly games it makes no difference which you use, if you want to go into tournaments you will need proper sized bases.

When I play with 28mm I always have a table 6 foot deep so don't get the problem of the attacker being on top of the defender after two turns, but I stick to I MU = 1 inch. For adjudicating distances of 6Mu or less I use those brass segmented measuring rods that you can adjust to different lengths by adding or taking off segments but the segments are ether in one inch or 2.5cm lengths - not 40mm! The 2.5cm ones are really useful for naval gams as either in metric or imperial the maths work - a sea mile being 2,000 yards and speed in knots in sea mile per hour.

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Re: 28mm vs 15mm

Post by Strategiser » Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:51 am

Doesn't this substantially prolong the game?

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Re: 28mm vs 15mm

Post by MDH » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:09 pm

Strategiser wrote:Doesn't this substantially prolong the game?
Not that I have noticed compared with 15mm on a 6x4. My regular FOG(N) opponent and I do play Sundays and usually for 1200 points so those are by definition longer games than standard ones and we usually play on the full 12 foot width in 28mm.Shifting between different MU sizes certainly would prolong it - by having constantly to remember that and do the mental arithmetic for 40cm measuring with tapes! A mental process too far! :(

The extra depth does not make a huge difference in those terms as 28mm bases are relatively deeper, in tactical for infantry and cavalry 6cm wide and 9cm deep compared with 4 and 4. Which means that a deployment two or more units deep needs more space to the rear.

Pretty much the same for FOG(AM of course) .

The initial deployment window is the same - defender 6MUs from the centre line and attacker 10 MUs. I do like the defender to have bit of manoeuvre space to the rear to compensate .

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Re: 28mm vs 15mm

Post by Strategiser » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:24 pm

Great, thanks. I think I will try both in 1 inch and 40mm and see which one suits me and my opponent(s) better. I do also like to have a little bit more space to manoeuvre.

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