POTZBLITZ V5.35 (BETA), NOV 23th

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Zombo
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Re: POTZBLITZ V4.83 (beta), AUG 7th

Post by Zombo » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:43 am

Secondly, the first line is infantry, the second - artillery and infantry it means we can place fighters only in the third line . Conclusion LOS3 - useless.
I don't think you can have everywhere a solid, 2-hex deep front line. and even if you could have enough artillery/inf, nothing prevents you from placing an airplane in second line anyway, so no, you cannot say a range 3 is automatically completely useless

Now, if what you're saying is that they will have a much more limited usefulness, well, we agree.

As I said before, airplanes at this strategic level WERE only marginally useful, and even that is an understatement (especially in 1914), so he reduction of their usefulness is in accordance with their historical importance

And regarding intelligence in general, even having the ability to know precisely the strength, effectiveness and entrench level of each enemy front-line unit is already way beyond realism

From a power-play point of view, I can see where it is frustrating to downgrade airplanes from their see-all satellite effectiveness to a more limited role. I can remember earlier complaints in the history of this mod about the downgrading of planes from their super-stuka offensive power to a much more toned-down effectiveness.

But even that doesn't make much sense in the end, because the enemy's planes are restricted likewise, so there is no loss in play balance.

What I see is that by adding some measure of fog of war ( let's face it, with a couple of planes on each side there is virtually no fog of war at all), an essential component of warfare, you favour a type of play based more on intuition, that rewards guessing the opponent's intentions while hiding your own. A zero-fog of war favours a much more chess-like, technical, mechanical type of play.

Argentum
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Re: POTZBLITZ V4.83 (beta), AUG 7th

Post by Argentum » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:03 pm

I don't think you can have everywhere a solid, 2-hex deep front line. and even if you could have enough artillery/inf, nothing prevents you from placing an airplane in second line anyway, so no, you cannot say a range 3 is automatically completely useless


I can't have two lines of units on the whole front, but this is necessary in the place where I will break through the enemy's defenses (especially against the human player) and fighters I need at the breakout place and not somewhere else.

well, we agree.

Who is "we"?

As I said before, airplanes at this strategic level WERE only marginally useful, and even that is an understatement (especially in 1914), so he reduction of their usefulness is in accordance with their historical importance


Historically, aircrafts were exploring not only the first lines but also much deeper. Look at the number of produced and lost aircrafts. After 1916, the Air Forces became an important part of the conflict.

But the main thing is that these changes will just kill a whole class of units in game. Tell me, you would have started building fighters with LOS3, which, moreover, have no chance of damaging the enemy?

Zombo
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Re: POTZBLITZ V4.83 (beta), AUG 7th

Post by Zombo » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:19 pm

Argentum,
I can't have two lines of units on the whole front, but this is necessary in the place where I will break through the enemy's defenses (especially against the human player) and fighters I need at the breakout place and not somewhere else.
Ideally, planes should be able to stack with land units, obviously. So should artillery units. But that's the way the game is built. I don't think the need to "free space" for breakthrough units ( and a plane only occupies one hex, so there's still two other hexes second line hexes available for each target hex) compensates for making planes ridiculously effective recon units that can reveal hundreds and hundreds of kilometers, in depth and width, of enemy deployment. The damaging effect on realism and fog of war is far superior on the game as a whole that the occasional inability to cram one more unit in the second line.
Who is "we"?
You and I. I'm saying that if your point is that my proposition makes planes a lot less useful, that's precisely my intention.
After 1916, the Air Forces became an important part of the conflict.
Yes. So first of all you're taking about the second half of the war, and second the Air Force became an important part of the conflict in its ground support role. With a 3-hex range you can hit a target from the third line, so there's no stacking issues here.

Argentum
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Re: POTZBLITZ V4.83 (beta), AUG 7th

Post by Argentum » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:31 pm

@Zombo
You did not answer my question. Would you produce fighters if they had LOS3?

Zombo
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Re: POTZBLITZ V4.83 (beta), AUG 7th

Post by Zombo » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:52 am

You did not answer my question. Would you produce fighters if they had LOS3?
Of course, I was the one that asked for LOS3 (although others seem to agree)
Only around 1916 and later (as historically )

If you wouldn't, that kinda proves my point: that you see planes essentially as a means for infaillible strategic intelligence (which they were not) and not for their ground support role, which is undiminished by the LOS3, and was te reason why planes got mass produced in the war.

nehi
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Re: POTZBLITZ V4.83 (beta), AUG 7th

Post by nehi » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:29 am

Zombo wrote:I don't think the need to "free space" for breakthrough units
of course, if u prefer realism = stalemate = boredom

airplanes are quite useless allready, give em at least some chance

Robotron
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Re: POTZBLITZ V4.83 (beta), AUG 7th

Post by Robotron » Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:57 pm

nehi wrote:airplanes are quite useless allready, give em at least some chance
Once fighters are equipped with synchronized guns tech and manned by an air ace that statement is simply not true as they are perfectly capable to cause efficiency and sometimes even strength loss from a RANGE (not LOS, the LOS issue is still open for discussion in the poll thread) of four hexes which at least in my book is neither useless nor unhistoric. At least for a units at a cost of a mere 20 PP.

But what about zeps? They should have a certain function which in my opinion is the higher LOS for scouting ahead, these units might also represent simple scouting balloons the farther away from the actual hex where the zep unit is placed. +2 LOS than fighters seems reasonably to me. Maybe 25 PP (30 in vanilla CTGW) with a build time of 3 turns (5 in vanilla) instead? And no: they won't be usable for effective strat bombing, at least not until the end of the game (1917+) where the new bomber units should still be more effective so the zep's role is pure scouting (besides morale bombing after certain events got played).

For all lurkers waiting for the next update: I'm testing the new V.84 update right now with Zombo to get an insight about the dreaded replay crash bug that still ruins MP matches.

Two games with CP attacking France through Belgium had to be abandoned due to the bug and one where war plan Rupprecht was chosen.
The second Rupprecht game is still alive but I'm still trying to find out the differences between the "alive" game and that game where the bug struck.

Hope dies last, they say.
"Potzblitz! Donnerwetter!" (Emperor Wilhelm II)

Commander the Great War on steroids: POTZBLITZ mod!
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=218&t=77884&p=662610#p662610

Zombo
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Re: POTZBLITZ V4.83 (beta), AUG 7th

Post by Zombo » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:58 pm

of course, if u prefer realism = stalemate = boredom
maybe you shouldn't play WW1 games in the first place, then... :roll:

I mean, it's kinda strange to play the Great war while demanding blitzkrieg-type combat, brutally effective planes right form the start, etc, etc, all of which are precisely not WW1 features

I'm not judging which one is best (I actually enjoy both), but WW2 games seem a lot more fitting to your preferences
But what about zeps?
Finding some use for the zeps is tricky, as at this level they had basically none. The thing is that the devs incorporated zeps just to flesh out the range of units available ( an approach not without its merits, but which leads to some aberrations, such as the armoured cars unit (!!)
I would make them pretty cheap (15-20PP), very low maintenance (1 wouldn't be shocking) and give them a LOS +1 compared to airplanes just to justify their existence

Regarding their bombing capacities, even in the later stages of the war, I would limit that to very limited morale damage, and a very very small chance of PP damage - (a concession to realism)

MarechalJoffre
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Re: POTZBLITZ V4.83 (beta), AUG 7th

Post by MarechalJoffre » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:03 pm

Wow! It is amazingly more challenging than the base game, and far more fun indeed. Russia got knocked out in 1915 and I am the Entente. All hope lies with the USA now, great work Robotron!

Robotron
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Re: POTZBLITZ V4.83 (beta), AUG 7th

Post by Robotron » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:42 pm

Zombo wrote:
of course, if u prefer realism = stalemate = boredom
maybe you shouldn't play WW1 games in the first place, then... :roll:
Definitely one should assume that playing a WW1 game would include stalemate, and quite LOTS of it or else one is playing the wrong kind of game.

Sadly most players seem to call the game lost once the initial German rush on Paris fails and then quit. This of course is totally reasonable but only IF CP is surely doomed whatever else might happen in the later game.

Potzblitz is trying to address this very problem by giving lots of options that are not in the vanilla game but at the same time trying to avoid going the power-creep way by emphasizing the overblown air war way.
Just look at the last AAR by user "operating" on Matrix forums: it's a total caricature of WW1 with air units almost as numerous as ground units. This feels just wrong!

My mission with this mod: while I can't stop players quitting once the Paris rush has failed I want to try to give veritable options to prolong the game without relying on power-creep with both sides having the chance to win.
This is of course almost impossible to balance properly if you want to make sure the game is both challenging while playing SP and MP.

I won't open that can of worms to release specific versions for SP and MP for the very reason that this is a hobby project.

Truth be said: declining numbers of players for this rather old game and ongoing technical problems in MP makes me wonder if this mod is still a worthwhile "hobby" or rather a futile habit I should quit.

Anyway: here's the link for the new test version V4.84:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0N7V ... TZMd29mVDg

If you want to help this mod please start MP matches while expecting them to crash after about 5-10 turns & report the logfile with a short description of the current situation.

This may sound as a lot to ask but it's all I can offer for now to be able to find that replay crash bug so we can have a working multiplayer version of the game in the future (or as long as Slitherene keeps its servers open for the game :P).
I'll gladly answer all challenges and I'm sure Zombo will do so likewise. :)

*edit:
thanks for the praise, MarechalJoffre ^^
"Potzblitz! Donnerwetter!" (Emperor Wilhelm II)

Commander the Great War on steroids: POTZBLITZ mod!
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=218&t=77884&p=662610#p662610

nehi
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Re: POTZBLITZ V4.83 (beta), AUG 7th

Post by nehi » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:02 pm

Zombo wrote:I mean, it's kinda strange to play the Great war while demanding blitzkrieg-type combat, brutally effective planes right form the start, etc, etc, all of which are precisely not WW1 features
kinda strange, that ill demanding realism in game, which is just very simplified model, sounds like oxymoron

there is not time to take hexes one by one

actually only reason ive tried it in mp was that imbalance between garrisons and infantries in early phase of war, which is giving small hope to not let it stuck in stalemate

Zombo
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Re: POTZBLITZ V4.83 (beta), AUG 7th

Post by Zombo » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:14 am

kinda strange, that ill demanding realism in game, which is just very simplified model, sounds like oxymoron
It is not. That's the whole point of wargame design, and as wargame designer, I should know. Simplification does not preclude realism. Realism is not complexity, in fact very often it's the opposite. A realist simplification is a working model that is capable of reproducing the historical general features of the conflict, the historical outcome as an "average" result and alternative outcomes that remain within a window of historical plausibility.

Robotron's mod turned this game from a vaguely WW1-themed fantasy into a WW1 realistic simulation. That's just how brilliant this mod is.

Robotron
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Re: POTZBLITZ V4.83 (beta), AUG 7th

Post by Robotron » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:32 pm

Zombo wrote: and as wargame designer, I should know.
Care to explain what wargames you designed? I'm just curious. :D
"Potzblitz! Donnerwetter!" (Emperor Wilhelm II)

Commander the Great War on steroids: POTZBLITZ mod!
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=218&t=77884&p=662610#p662610

Zombo
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Re: POTZBLITZ V4.83 (beta), AUG 7th

Post by Zombo » Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:28 pm

None finalized yet. I'm working for Legion Wargames, I'm designing a three-player diplomatic game on the years 1936-1939 in Europe, called Prelude to War. It's in its final stage (although still lacking the final artwork) and should be out for pre-order in a couple of months. I'm also developing the wargame of another designer ( although pretty much rewriting the whole thing) about the second battle of the Marne, 1918, Soissons sector. Finally, I've just started a Verdun project.
I've also designed a pretty popular variant/expansion for the famous WW1 strategic "Paths of Glory", I'm sure you know the game

FinnishGeneral
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Re: POTZBLITZ V4.83 (beta), AUG 7th

Post by FinnishGeneral » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:54 am

I had to make a forum account just so that I could post this one comment.

I've played tons of games and tons of mods. This is the best mod I have ever played. It doesn't just change a few things - it transforms a good game into something spectacular. It's almost insulting to call this a mod, because this is more like Commander - The Great War 2.

I like all the changes in this mod but I really like the events. There is a staggering amount of them and they really make the whole WW1 experience come alive.

Currently my only beef is that this mod is too hard for my skill level. But that's not really the fault of the mod - I just need to learn how to play :)

Thank you for all your hard work. I really appreciate it.

Zombo
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Re: POTZBLITZ V4.83 (beta), AUG 7th

Post by Zombo » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:58 am

Welcome in our small but thriving community, finnishgeneral!

Robotron
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Re: POTZBLITZ V4.83 (beta), AUG 7th

Post by Robotron » Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:28 pm

FinnishGeneral wrote:it's almost insulting to call this a mod, because this is more like Commander - The Great War 2.
My faint hope is that someday the guys at Matrix/Slitherene use my mod (or some of its ideas) as a blueprint for a new WW1 game using a much further enhanced game engine. ^^
"Potzblitz! Donnerwetter!" (Emperor Wilhelm II)

Commander the Great War on steroids: POTZBLITZ mod!
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=218&t=77884&p=662610#p662610

Zombo
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Re: POTZBLITZ V4.83 (beta), AUG 7th

Post by Zombo » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:35 am

My faint hope is that someday the guys at Matrix/Slitherene use my mod (or some of its ideas) as a blueprint for a new WW1 game using a much further enhanced game engine
Have you tried to reach ou to the devs?

Robotron
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Re: POTZBLITZ V4.83 (beta), AUG 7th

Post by Robotron » Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:01 am

Zombo wrote:Have you tried to reach ou to the devs?
No, my coding skills are nothing to write home about and my scripts are a complete mess but it's not totally unrealistic to assume they had a look at it or got some inspiration just by following the discussion in the modding sections.
"Potzblitz! Donnerwetter!" (Emperor Wilhelm II)

Commander the Great War on steroids: POTZBLITZ mod!
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=218&t=77884&p=662610#p662610

Zombo
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Re: POTZBLITZ V4.83 (beta), AUG 7th

Post by Zombo » Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:56 am

crash...
Attachments
ctgw.zip
(591 Bytes) Downloaded 33 times

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