old Potzblitz thread (discontinued)

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Robotron
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Re: POTZBLITZ: a mod for CTGW RELEASED!

Post by Robotron » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:39 pm

I tried really hard for a few months to make the AI more "intelligent" but the AI code is a mess and partially unfinished in many places and it will most likeyl never be fixed. And since the AI is cheating anyway (infinite railmoves, seeing through "fog of war", getting way more income from convoys than the player and whatnot) and still is a pushover I really see no reason for complaints.

If anyone feels up to the task of fixing the AI then great but until then I feel it necessary to make certain parts of the game harder for the singleplayers (especially as Entente vs CP AI) to give a challenge and motivation to replay this rather old game again.

Have you tried shipping allied reinforcements to Serbia to make them last longer? In my testgames as Entente they held out way into 1915, until Bulgaria joined and then collapsed which felt appropriate.

But then I probably play in a rather different style than you with different balancing of the fronts.

And again: if you are still able to win in 23 turns as Entente I really can't see anything wrong with the game being too hard. Are you from Serbia by any chance? :wink:

Currently I'm testplaying as CP again and some things you mentioned will be improved upon.

nehi
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Re: POTZBLITZ: a mod for CTGW RELEASED!

Post by nehi » Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:12 pm

in overall u made interesting mod, my complaints were just minor issues which look wierd for me

about that shipping to serbia, i had there full line of defense with no need for that, but then in like 2 or 3 turns it just collapses, so i couldnt react anyway

3 turns between unbreakable situation with 2 cp conquered cities in serbian hands and serbian surrender

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Re: POTZBLITZ: a mod for CTGW RELEASED!

Post by Robotron » Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:19 pm

Okay, that seems too severe, I agree, I will tone that down.

But: every Entente unit you send to Serbia will improve Serbia's morale (infantry will do more good than cavalry and cavalry more than garrisons) every turn.

Also: every Serbian unit on AH territory will rapidly consume Serbia's manpower.

(I mentioned both on my explanation of the events several weeks ago)

nehi
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Re: POTZBLITZ: a mod for CTGW RELEASED!

Post by nehi » Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:35 pm

today ive tried to finish interupted 2nd cp run, but in the very end it crashed again

it looks like entente can last longer than in vanilla (it would be interesting to have some feedback of other side morale when testing 8) )
im going to play it again, 37 turns is one the longest games i ever had, in 1.6x longest for sure
i had to take bordeaux to break france
russia surrendered in like 30th turn (russia beat itself by constantly moving units here and there, so i were just finishing low eff units, else it could last even longer)
britain surprisingly still up - last of entente standing, lost whole egypt, kuwait, abadan and one dread

now some complaints about changing hex ownership through events

serbian/macedonian front - ive advanced further before it happened, so after event i had 2 units on foreign, former serbian hexes surrounded by more foreign hexes (british then)

(then i remembered something similar in entente campaign) bergmann offensive - when ive stepped as russian on hex 148,48 some turkish counter event was triggered and one of their units were placed on russian hex just nearby sarikamish, so i couldnt even place new unit there, i guess turks should be placed only on turks hexes, it was just unfair backstab, had to reload autosave :lol:

gallipoli - top of wierdness, i had garrison in anzak koyu, event changed ownership of anzak koyu and placed 2 british and 1 french infatries around it, even i moved austrian battleship to neighbour hex of anzak koyu (and sunk some british cruiser), that garrison was out of supply, so just badly owned in 2 attacks during ai turn

egypt - i conquered cairo (egypt defense should have at least line port said - ismalia - hex above port hard set, so it cant be taken with ease) and surrounded alexandria, then some egypt natives rising happened, i lost cairo and many other hexes ownership, units close to my own hexes could step out, but i had to disband one infantry, was trapped on hexes of new neutral nation
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Robotron
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Re: POTZBLITZ: a mod for CTGW RELEASED!

Post by Robotron » Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:24 pm

Sorry, but the bug lies in the AI files, it's about front bias allocation not expecting such a rather extreme setup. I don't have a proper clue at the moment, but I suspect it's either the lack of any infantry units or suitable landing sites for amphibious landings for Britain in the vincinity of Paris.

Image

I guess you should go back to ROFLstomping the vanilla version instead or wait for Kirk23s mod and roll over all human opponents. You are just too good for this mod at the moment.

Congrats!

nehi
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Re: POTZBLITZ: a mod for CTGW RELEASED!

Post by nehi » Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:50 pm

dont talk about extreme again :lol:

airships are best way to break britain, they can lower its production or help to sink bold dreads 8)

vanilla is stomped enough, im out of any new ideas how to finish it faster

Robotron
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Re: POTZBLITZ: a mod for CTGW RELEASED!

Post by Robotron » Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:13 pm

nehi wrote:dont talk about extreme again :lol:
Well your setup is extreme enough to crash the AI part of the game (not my mod), if that's not extreme then what else? :roll:

It's difficult to constrain powergaming-attitudes like yours, but I think incuring a punishment for deleting too many labs in singleplayer mode might be a step in the right direction. 8)

An event for partisans in unoccupied enemy cities if there are not enough ground troops around might be another. :twisted:

But first of all I must find a way to stop the train-abuse by the AI, that's surely the biggest point. 8)

As for Gallipoli: just keep the heck off Anzak Koyu, those troops will be overrun . They must be overrun for the Entente AI to have any chance to stand more than a few turns. Anzak Koyu is a capital for the same reason. :!:

As for Bergman-Offensive: just don't storm directly at Erzurum when playing Entente. Bergman's Offensive was smashed too when he did so. :wink:

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Re: POTZBLITZ: a mod for CTGW RELEASED!

Post by nehi » Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:16 am

i saw similar setting in france often without crashes in 1.66 in different scenarios, but i understand it can be a complex of more causes

if i knew ai will last so long, i would keep more labs :lol:

i hate partisans (strategic command 2 or ceaw have it i guess) 8)

i understand that brutal force solution in gallipoli, but something like kicking unit/s back to production queue on such overtaken hexes will be more nice than levitating-no-way-how-to-supply unit on foreign hex (i remember arab revolt do it somehow like that with sg in medina)

i havent problem with countering bergmanns offensive, but if u step first on hex 148,48 it sets turks infantry on russian hex, on top of that on neighbour hex of sarikamish (if i imagine that neighbour hex would be full and turks infantry set up directly to sarikamish :lol: but i couldnt test it, i had just one cavalry on hex 148, 47 and second couldnt reach it from 147,46)

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Re: POTZBLITZ: a mod for CTGW RELEASED!

Post by nehi » Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:43 am

new run and i have to say, there is something like event bullying aimed on germans

nothing (german) lost in the east, dread up, belgium down, paris+calais+rouen in german hands and german morale allready droped to 38%
(incredible, drop to zero in next turn)

austrians lost tarnopol, lemberg, przemysl and krakow and its at 74%
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Robotron
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Re: POTZBLITZ: a mod for CTGW RELEASED!

Post by Robotron » Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:19 pm

I need a savegame of this to have a closer look.

*edit*

Has the Tannenberg-event already triggered? Until then Germany will lose morale for each german hex occupied by Russia.

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Re: POTZBLITZ: a mod for CTGW RELEASED!

Post by nehi » Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:45 pm

hasnt, but it has incredible huge impact, 38% in one turn? or even more if germans would have higher morale... even capital or dreadnought dont do so much, russians havent achieve anything important, german navy sunk russian dreadnought, germans owned wf, austrians owned all serbia and sunk french dreadnought, but germans surrendered in early dec 1914 without any loss (except posen in very last turn, when it was over anyway) just in time they got verdun (very close to break france)

thats just crazy

btw. when i conquered belfort, it triggered metz event (so its like suiciding for germans)
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Robotron
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Re: POTZBLITZ: a mod for CTGW RELEASED!

Post by Robotron » Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:08 pm

Ah, now I see, it's "Mr. Airwar" on the move again:

Image :roll:

Had you built some infantrys instead of those zeps you wouldn't have to defend your eastern front with garrisons. :wink:

This mod is meant to punish exploitive behaviour in favour of a more historic game. Next update will fix the zep spam for good, I promise.

Some people.... :lol:

nehi
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Re: POTZBLITZ: a mod for CTGW RELEASED!

Post by nehi » Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:17 pm

to close one front is better than to hold both, there is no need to punish strategically right decisions, all on continent except russia allready down at this moment

some impact, fine

end war in 3 turns without real fight as serbs? bad

one more thing ive noticed when starting next game, french navy and german units were somehow randomly placed, when u dont restart whole ctgw and open new one, it does this randomization, its on purpose? because every first game after launch ctgw units are on same places

what triggers that tanneberg event? because it has nothing to do with tannenberg

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Re: POTZBLITZ: a mod for CTGW RELEASED!

Post by Robotron » Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:52 pm

I'm sorry but your way of playing turns the game into a mockery of WW1 and I will not have that in my mod. However I must congratulate you on your expertise to maximise the impact of units given to you. :)

But please understand that this way of playing completely conflicts with my mod's design philosophy and totally mixes up what I'm trying to achieve: recreate WW1 in a more or less plausible way with lots of details and emphasis on events which might to some extent change the course of things.

For instance: the loss of morale for Germany when losing hexes in the east (started by the "Cossacks" event and stopped by the "Tannenberg" event) is meant to create a dilemma for the CP player on whether to push for Paris and risk a morale collapse or to strengthen the east and therefore risk a stalemate in the west.

As I already mentioned the weakness of the AI is the reason to handicap the player. I don't like that myself but I do believe even with those handicaps the game is still too easy to win in SP no matter what side you play.
By the way: none of these handicaps apply to multiplayer games.

I'm not quite sure about the impact of the zeps in seizing Paris so early in the game but the very idea to build such an armada of blimps seems just so hair-raising unrealistic to me (however effective in gameplay terms they might be) I almost could not decide whether to laugh or bang my head on the desk when I saw the maps from the savegames you provided. I'm sure you can do just as good without the balloons after the next update. :)

Anyway, thanks for reporting. 8)

P.S.:

Yes, the French Ships at the entry to the Adriatic are randomly placed at gamestart.

Tannenberg is triggered when you first destroy a Russian infantry or cavalry. Will be changed to infantry only in the update.

You really should read the description of the events I posted.

nehi
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Re: POTZBLITZ: a mod for CTGW RELEASED!

Post by nehi » Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:21 pm

you really should write your description of how - at least important ones - events are working right in the game, there is million of events (like 5 every turn, no kidding)

not only french ships, but it took some of german units from wf and placed em in the east (but as i said, in every first game after ctgw start its same, random only when replaying during same session)

i wont argue whats mockery, try to break stalemate or stalemate everywhere, wf, ef and all minor fronts (btw. ef is almost impenetrable in your mod, in contrary wf is like freeride - same as in vanilla, maybe some more small garrisons would help there a lot to slow blitz down)

i took paris in sep or oct, zeps are for verdun, which is last of 3 vital goals, paris, dread and verdun, then france is almost done, usually serbs fall is the last nail in its coffin or some more bombardment of inocent people - discovered in bolsheviks revolution thread :lol:

fighters are nerfed to piece of junk, arts are slightly better than they used to be, but they are not so flexible, so blimps with 1 shock are like el dorado, why to have 2 rows of ground units, when 2nd row cant shoot

dont say when cp are vs last standing britain, why to have million ground units when they cant swim at once

its no dilema, when germany is losing tens of % every turn, but more garrisons is enough to hold this mockery of german will to fight

i understand your goals, but u did great job for anyone, i see no way to win it in less than 30 turns as cp (vanilla ai can resist 13, so u doubled or trippled its endurance), your storm of events is enjoyable, except that instant killing ones :lol:

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Re: POTZBLITZ: a mod for CTGW RELEASED!

Post by Robotron » Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:11 pm

nehi wrote:you really should write your description of how - at least important ones - events are working right in the game, there is million of events (like 5 every turn, no kidding)
Yes, wouldn't descriptions in the game be nice? Of course I would have done that long ago if I only would know how. I'm not a skilled lua coder, this mod is my first ever project in lua. 5 events per turn might be true for a few turns of the first year then it will quiet down. I have many games that only start with the DOW of AH and that's it. Sure there might be some clustering of events at certain times, but this is mostly random as I have set almost NONE to fire at a specific time. :!:
nehi wrote:not only french ships, but it took some of german units from wf and placed em in the east (but as i said, in every first game after ctgw start its same, random only when replaying during same session)
This is the "Redeploy"-Event, it has a only 17% (in in 6) chance for getting triggered and is (again) described earlier in this thread. :wink:

About randomness: a basic problem when dealing with computers, at least until quantum computers are properly working, is their inability to produce "real" random numbers. At the start of the game the engine produces a rather "not random" string of numbers that it will use to throw at the "random" functions. This problem is even more severe when using the lua scripting language which is especially prone to produce the same numbers multiple times in a row. I made it so that the random string is defined by the length of time your PC has been running and this is the best method available. So again: not my fault but the original coders who chose to use lua for the game which is relatively easy to get into but has some flaws too. :?
nehi wrote:i wont argue whats mockery, try to break stalemate or stalemate everywhere, wf, ef and all minor fronts (btw. ef is almost impenetrable in your mod, in contrary wf is like freeride - same as in vanilla, maybe some more small garrisons would help there a lot to slow blitz down)
i took paris in sep or oct, zeps are for verdun, which is last of 3 vital goals, paris, dread and verdun, then france is almost done, usually serbs fall is the last nail in its coffin or some more bombardment of inocent people - discovered in bolsheviks revolution thread :lol:
You should do a thread with pictures explaining your blitz vs. France, I'd like to see that. :shock:
nehi wrote:fighters are nerfed to piece of junk, arts are slightly better than they used to be, but they are not so flexible, so blimps with 1 shock are like el dorado, why to have 2 rows of ground units, when 2nd row cant shoot
Don't say fighters are junk, they provide a LOS of 5 (now that cavalry has LOS of 2), can fill frontline gaps when in trouble and can be upgraded with techs and commanders to be good efficiency drains. Did you know that even a "shock: 0" fighter has a minimal chance of causing an efficiency loss? 8)
nehi wrote:i understand your goals, but u did great job for anyone, i see no way to win it in less than 30 turns as cp (vanilla ai can resist 13, so u doubled or trippled its endurance), your storm of events is enjoyable, except that instant killing ones :lol:
Well, I see no problem in taking more than 30 turns to win the game. My ultimate goal would be to find a way to keep the game interesting until the very end, however impossible that goal might be. And thanks for any praise, it's highly appreciated! :)

P.S. next major update coming this weekend.

nehi
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Re: POTZBLITZ: a mod for CTGW RELEASED!

Post by nehi » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:46 pm

ive made my first gaming video ever, its funny, i werent playin too seriously but i got paris in world record anyway :lol:

so fast, that there was and stayed some us infantry in rouen

in video i also showed as bonus how to break serbians and how to catch russian dread - french dread can be caught between sardinia and sicilia just after france joins the war, its half hour long (russia had some delayed mobilisation event, else it could be shorter)

(i was hearing france:albania euro match, if someones going to ask whats that weird talking in background about 8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_uIumCAupg

brussels need infantry or trenches or both

Robotron
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Re: POTZBLITZ: a mod for CTGW RELEASED!

Post by Robotron » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:41 pm

Trenches are a no-go, not possible on 1st turn a nation joins, sorry. But I will reinstall infantry in Brussels, had removed it to help CP AI.

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Re: POTZBLITZ: a mod for CTGW RELEASED!

Post by nehi » Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:31 am

or made line of belgian units, i guess surprised were french in that event 8)

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Re: POTZBLITZ: a mod for CTGW RELEASED!

Post by kirk23 » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:44 am

Robotron wrote:Trenches are a no-go, not possible on 1st turn a nation joins, sorry. But I will reinstall infantry in Brussels, had removed it to help CP AI.

Hi, I'm really impressed by the massive amount of changes in the Events Lua, I started a game as the CP, but soon realized that my normal method of game play won't work using the mod. As both Austria and Germany's morale was extremely low, and I was still only in Dec 1914 ? So I closed the mod down, and I'm now in the process, of investigating the scripts to see what is going on with morale now.

As for the problem of players building vast armadas of Zeppelins, which was totally impossible to do, for Germany during WW1. There are 2 ways to solve this unhistorical Zeppelin use, 1 is alter the Zeppelin unit script, so that all they are good for was Recon and Anti-Submarine warfare, because their other land Bombardment effects are reduced to virtually zero. The other way to go I was thinking about, was having MAX build limit, implemented into the game scripts, so that no more than 3 Zeppelins could be on the map at any one time for example. This game limit could also be applied to other unit types, as deemed necessary, to enhance the general game play.

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