Skirmish battle query

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TankerOne
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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by TankerOne » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:11 am

Also what do you mean by more expensive? It’s always the same for me

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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by PoorOldSpike » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:50 pm

Paul59 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:32 am
I have just seen the Jagdtiger in action for the first time, I'm not happy with the model, it is way too small. Also the stats look a bit wrong, it has a shorter AP range than a King Tiger, I have not checked it out yet, but that does not seem right. I can fix the stats, but the model is beyond my abilities to fix. I might just delete it from the mod.

Yes it does look a bit too small (below), but I'd leave it in anyway because various other models in BA2 also seem to be too small (or too big) and we get used to them..:)
As regards its range of '8' compared to the Ktig's '10', I can happily live with that because it nicely reflects the better accuracy of the Ktig's 88mm at long range, compared to the Jtig's big lumbering 128mm shell.

PS- as regards tweaking stats files, I've never really liked seeing that done in any game because it generally confuses people, that's one of the reasons I drifted away from the Order of Battle game because tweaking divided the community into various multiple groups because some people preferred to use some tweaks and not others, and some people preferred to stick with vanilla. So I stopped posting OOB screenshots and tutorials because everybody was playing differently-tweaked versions and conformity had flown out the window, thereby rendering my postings meaningless.
In fact Paul when you changed the Pz III M's name to Pz III L in your mod you rendered my 3 screenshots of the PzIII family earlier in this thread meaningless to some extent, that's why I dislike tweaks..;)

Image
Last edited by PoorOldSpike on Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by PoorOldSpike » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:59 pm

TankerOne wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:11 am
Also what do you mean by more expensive? It’s always the same for me
Look at my 76mm gun screenshots again and you'll see the AT version is priced at '80', and the dual AT/Arty version is priced at '86'.
People can therefore freely choose how much cash they want to spend on either version, so I don't think it does any harm to have both versions in the mod does it?..:)

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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by Paul59 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:18 pm

Hi OldSpike,

In general, I have a personal rule not to change the stats of vanilla units, unless there is a good reason to do so. I changed the name of the PzIII M because it seemed to be a more logical designation; the PzIII L was the first model to have the long 50mm, and Ausf M's are often depicted with spaced armour which the BA2 model does not have. There are old posts on the forum that suggest the same name change. Also, for some reason the name PzIII M has always bugged me a tiny bit, I think I get it confused in my head with the PzIII N, which has a totally different armament.

As for the Jagdtiger, it is not a vanilla unit, it is a user created unit that only appears in 1 or 2 user created scenarios, and I see absolutely no problem in modifying it's stats to fit my interpretation. That is what modding is all about.

I agree that other models in the game have size issues. I will check out the historical data on the Jagdtiger's 128mm. I'm not sure what to do with it yet, I might well keep it, possibly with the stats adjusted.

cheers

Paul
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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by PoorOldSpike » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:56 pm

Paul59 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:18 pm
In general, I have a personal rule not to change the stats of vanilla units..
And yet you changed the vanilla III M to III L, be careful, the naughty step...
No sweat, when puzzled people ask me if the L is a new model or what, i'll pass them on to you to explain..:)
As regards the Jtig, it's not a vanilla unit so do whatever you like with it, but if you get rid of it I'll have to go back to an earlier post of mine and delete the bit where I said you've included the Jtig in the mod.
People might want to be able to get their hands on it in your mod, but if it's gone you'll disappoint them..;)

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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by Paul59 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:29 pm

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:56 pm
Paul59 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:18 pm
In general, I have a personal rule not to change the stats of vanilla units..
And yet you changed the vanilla III M to III L, be careful, the naughty step...
No sweat, when puzzled people ask me if the L is a new model or what, i'll pass them on to you to explain..:)
As regards the Jtig, it's not a vanilla unit so do whatever you like with it, but if you get rid of it I'll have to go back to an earlier post of mine and delete the bit where I said you've included the Jtig in the mod.
People might want to be able to get their hands on it in your mod, but if it's gone you'll disappoint them..;)
The Pz III was a name change, not a stats change.

People can always get the Jagdtiger from it's original scenarios if they really want it. But I am inclined to keep it, with a disclaimer that I am not happy with it, and I am treating it as a placeholder model, until something better comes along.

Oh, and be warned, I am changing the T-35 in the next update! It's another modded unit, so I am allowed! As it is, the unit does not take into account the 45mm guns at all, it's fire stats are only based on the 76mm. So I am increasing the AP values to match the 45mm guns in other Soviet tanks, and increasing it's shots to 3 per turn, to give some recognition of the fact that it has three main gun turrets not just one. I know the multi turret tank was a dead end design, but surely it must have been able to fire a bit more often than a one turret tank with only a 4/5 man crew?

cheers

Paul
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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by TankerOne » Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:40 am

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:59 pm
TankerOne wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:11 am
Also what do you mean by more expensive? It’s always the same for me
Look at my 76mm gun screenshots again and you'll see the AT version is priced at '80', and the dual AT/Arty version is priced at '86'.
People can therefore freely choose how much cash they want to spend on either version, so I don't think it does any harm to have both versions in the mod does it?..:)
It’s always be 80 and 80 for me, and I think if the mod did so, I think making a difference in values to reflect differences in ammunition would certainly help to make them standout more from each other

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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by PoorOldSpike » Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:45 am

TankerOne wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:40 am
It’s always be 80 and 80 for me, and I think if the mod did so, I think making a difference in values to reflect differences in ammunition would certainly help to make them standout more from each other
My screenshots prove that the 76mm AT gun costs 80, and the dual-purpose AT/Arty version costs 86, so I can't understand why you're seeing 80-80 on your monitor?
Can you post a screenshot of 80-80 so we can check it out?

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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by Paul59 » Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:20 pm

I have added the Resuppy and Air Reconnaissance bonuses to the Skirmish Mod. I can't see any reason not to have them in, I have kept the chance of them appearing to only 20% or so.

The other bonuses; off map artillery, off map rocket barrages, and heavy bombers, are all too overwhelming for Skirmish mode I think. They have their place in designed scenarios, where their power can be taken into account when designing the difficulty, but in a random match the side that is lucky to get them would have a big advantage. I might add the Smoke barrages though, what do people think about that?

I would love to add a chance of having the other types of Ground Attack planes appearing, but the scripts are too confusing for me to work out. When I get a chance I might tell Pip what I want to achieve, and see if he can help.
Last edited by Paul59 on Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by PoorOldSpike » Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:09 pm

Paul59 wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:20 pm
I have added the Resuppy and Air Reconnaissance bonuses to the Skirmish Mod..
Does that make it mod version 1.5?
I can only see 1.4 available at your download link.

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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by Paul59 » Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:55 pm

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:09 pm
Paul59 wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:20 pm
I have added the Resuppy and Air Reconnaissance bonuses to the Skirmish Mod..
Does that make it mod version 1.5?
I can only see 1.4 available at your download link.
There will be a 1.5, but I have not uploaded it yet, I have not finished it yet.

Thinking of those missing bonuses (the Resupply and Recon), maybe there is good reason that the developers did not include them in Skirmishes, perhaps the AI does not use them or maybe use them smartly?

With the artillery barrages, I could set them up so that both sides get them, but again I think they would tend to spoil games rather than enhance them. The player would inevitably use his barrages better than the AI, causing the game to be too easy. Also, many players might be rather annoyed when their carefully planned advance gets wiped out by a Katyusha barrage!
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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by PoorOldSpike » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:41 pm

Paul59 wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:55 pm
There will be a 1.5, but I have not uploaded it yet, I have not finished it yet.
Thinking of those missing bonuses (the Resupply and Recon), maybe there is good reason that the developers did not include them in Skirmishes, perhaps the AI does not use them or maybe use them smartly?
With the artillery barrages, I could set them up so that both sides get them, but again I think they would tend to spoil games rather than enhance them. The player would inevitably use his barrages better than the AI, causing the game to be too easy. Also, many players might be rather annoyed when their carefully planned advance gets wiped out by a Katyusha barrage!
1- The AI might not use resupply even if you included it, there's no way of telling, so if I were you I wouldn't bother including it blind because it might give the human player a big advantage if he uses it and the AI doesn't.

2- Recon is an interesting idea but here again we don't know if the AI would use what the plane sees to plan his axes of attack etc, whereas the human player most certainly would, so there's a risk that it'd give the human too much of an advantage.
Apart from that, it's FUN not knowing where the enemy is til our scouts etc have located them, and an all-seeing recce plane would spoil that fun..:)
"The whole art of war consists of guessing at what is on the other side of the hill"- Duke of Wellington
"Just drive down that road until you get blown up"- Gen. George Patton
PS- anyway, the light bombers in BA2 give us some recon capability, for example if we target suspected enemy positions in distant greyed-out areas of the map, the squares light up (become spotted) around where the bombs fall, and sometimes a tank or whatever becomes spotted too, so pure recon planes are in no way a "must have" thing..:)

3- Regarding big arty barrages, they might wipe out half his (or our) enemy force (think "nuke strike"), making the game wildly unbalanced so I'd say forget 'em.
We already have mortars and arty-capable guns anyway..:)

4- As regards big smoke barrages, I'd say forget them too, because our mortars and guns can already fire smoke and it's a very powerful weapon.
PS- as a matter of interest I've never ever seen the AI fire smoke in any battle, it apparently fires HE only.

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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by Paul59 » Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:42 pm

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:41 pm

4- As regards big smoke barrages, I'd say forget them too, because our mortars and guns can already fire smoke and it's a very powerful weapon.
PS- as a matter of interest I've never ever seen the AI fire smoke in any battle, it apparently fires HE only.
The AI would only lay a smoke barrage in a designed scenario, random skirmishes don't have them, and I can't think of any scenario that has an AI smoke barrage. Either no designer has used one for the AI, or the AI would not use them anyway. However, I have seen the AI use smoke all the time though, normally when a unit has been suppressed and they want to hide. I am a bit suspicious of this, as I thought only engineers have a smoke laying capability, yet I have seen all sorts of AI units laying down smoke in their own tile, of course it is often hard to tell what exactly is going on due to the fog war rules.

I will test out the resupply and recon planes. I do agree with you about the potential unbalancing effect of them on the AI, but they might be fun, and I can think of some situations where a resupply bonus might be essential for the player depending upon what forces he has, and what he is up against.
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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by PoorOldSpike » Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:04 pm

Paul59 wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:42 pm
..However, I have seen the AI use smoke all the time though, normally when a unit has been suppressed and they want to hide.
Yes I know some AI infantry can throw smoke, I've seen them do it regularly, but I was talking about AI-fired mortar and arty smoke which I've never ever seen happen..:)
It's your mod so do whatever you like, and if people don't like some of the changes they can always revert to an earlier version..:)
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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by Paul59 » Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:55 pm

Yes, I don't think I have ever seen the AI use artillery or mortar smoke. I think it would use the Smoke barrage bonus, after all they can't do anything else with it! But the AI would certainly not use it wisely, so it is not worth including.

In the vanilla Skirmishes there are already three bonuses, not including the airstrikes; Rally, Revive and Drill Sgt. Are we sure that the AI uses those, and if they do, are they used as effectively as a decent human player would? I don't think you can say that Resupply is a bigger advantage to the human player than any of those existing bonuses.

I was only asking for opinions on the artillery barrages and smoke, I had no intention of including them myself, unless other players really want them. They are not in the 1.5 mod and never have been.

I will test myself the Resupply and Air Recon, and if I think they are a problem they will be taken out.
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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by PoorOldSpike » Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:59 pm

Paul59 wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:55 pm
In the vanilla Skirmishes there are already three bonuses, not including the airstrikes; Rally, Revive and Drill Sgt. Are we sure that the AI uses those, and if they do, are they used as effectively as a decent human player would? I don't think you can say that Resupply is a bigger advantage to the human player than any of those existing bonuses..
I'm pretty certain that the AI uses Drill Sgt because I sometimes see the word "Promotion" float up from one of his units even though it hasn't been in action that turn.
But I don't know if the AI uses Rally and Revive.
Regarding planes, I've seen the AI use the Mig fighter and the Sturmovik bomber.
I keep meaning to create a "Testing Ground" in the Editor so I can place units on it to see what they do, but I can't seem to understand the editor yet to set one up.
Can you by any chance send me an editor file consisting of a blank map so that I can plonk units on it to put them through their paces?
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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by Paul59 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:38 am

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:59 pm
Paul59 wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:55 pm
In the vanilla Skirmishes there are already three bonuses, not including the airstrikes; Rally, Revive and Drill Sgt. Are we sure that the AI uses those, and if they do, are they used as effectively as a decent human player would? I don't think you can say that Resupply is a bigger advantage to the human player than any of those existing bonuses..
I'm pretty certain that the AI uses Drill Sgt because I sometimes see the word "Promotion" float up from one of his units even though it hasn't been in action that turn.
But I don't know if the AI uses Rally and Revive.
Regarding planes, I've seen the AI use the Mig fighter and the Sturmovik bomber.
I keep meaning to create a "Testing Ground" in the Editor so I can place units on it to see what they do, but I can't seem to understand the editor yet to set one up.
Can you by any chance send me an editor file consisting of a blank map so that I can plonk units on it to put them through their paces?
Oh yes, the AI uses the planes, and it may use the other bonuses, but it would definitely not use them as well as a decent human player would.

Here is my Test scenario, it's called Test 2 and already contains the Militia test scenario. You can amend that as you wish, add units or terrain whatever you want. It is really easy to create your own simple test scenarios, I might post a brief "How to" explanation later.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/2ieckwn5e ... 2.rar/file
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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by Paul59 » Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:03 pm

Paul59 wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:20 pm
I would love to add a chance of having the other types of Ground Attack planes appearing, but the scripts are too confusing for me to work out.
I have figured this out now.
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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by Paul59 » Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:47 pm

Here is version 1.5 of my Random Skirmish Mod:

LINK DELETED SEE REVISED MOD HERE:

viewtopic.php?f=312&p=817400#p817400

Here are the changes:

KV-1 1942 end date changed to April 1944, was infinity.

T-35 stats changed, original version seemed to make no allowance for the turrets armed with 45mm guns, so I gave the AP values from the BT7 and allowed it 3 shots per turn.

T-20 Komsomolets artillery tractor added.

T48 57mm GMC Lend Lease Halftrack added.

Ostwind added (model by Amaris).

Sdkfz 251/17 added back to Skirmishes.

Late war versions of some German units added with late war camo.

Added Resupply bonus.

All the other Ground Attack planes that are in game can possibily show up now; that includes Sturmovik PTAB, I-15, HS 129. Stuka G, Me 262, and Hs 123. Whereas before in vanilla Skirmishes when aircraft appeared both sides had them, now Ground Attack aircraft maybe on one side and not the other, however Fighter aircraft will still only appear if both sides have them. Ground Attack aircraft appear as follows:

1941; I-15 or IL-2 for Soviets, HS-123 or Stuka for Germans

1942: I-15 or IL-2 for Soviets, HS-123 or Stuka for Germans

1943: IL-2 or IL-2 PTAB for Soviets, Fw-190 or Stuka G for Germans

1944: IL-2 or IL-2 PTAB for Soviets, Fw-190 or HS-129 for Germans

1945: IL-2 or IL-2 PTAB for Soviets, Fw-190 or Me-262 for Germans

Jagdtiger stats changed to better reflect 128mm gun capabilities, and drawbacks, ie; shots have been reduced to one per turn.

Maus stats changed slightly, mainly to bring it in line with the Jagdtiger, which had the same main gun armament.

More Bonus skins added.


I would like some feedback on if anyone notices the AI using any bonuses, especially the "new" Ground Attack Aircraft.

Cheers

Paul
Last edited by Paul59 on Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by PoorOldSpike » Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:46 pm

I deleted my post, issue now solved...:)
Last edited by PoorOldSpike on Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:49 am, edited 4 times in total.
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