Skirmish battle query

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PoorOldSpike
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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by PoorOldSpike » Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:18 pm

Latest v1.1 test-
Meeting and Symmetric-type battles DO include T-35's, but only very rarely.

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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by Paul59 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:51 pm

It was a very rare tank, only 61 total built, so that is probably not a problem.

I have set the T35's Skirmishinfo value to 4, which seems to result in most units being picked rarely. A value of 5 seems to mean it is very rarely picked, and 3 is picked quite often. So the only real option is to drop it to a 3, but then it might be appearing in nearly every battle. I might test changing it and see what happens.
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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by PoorOldSpike » Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:22 am

I've just had another look at 1.1 Random forces and can confirm that these new units do sometimes appear in it in various years-
GERMAN-
Jagdtiger, Sturmtiger, Kubelwagen, Flak 30AA, Sd251/17AA, Sdkfz 222
But as yet I haven't seen a Pz I or Maus.

RUSSIAN-
I've seen the T-35 and AT rifles, but haven't yet seen a Katyusha.

Anyway on second thoughts perhaps I was being too fussy about what units should be in random selections, because after all RANDOM means RANDOM, so from now on i'll shut up and take it on the chin whatever random force your 1.1 mod dishes out..:)

PS- Besides, we can always use Ajax's fixed Army List selections to largely remove the random element.
(You've already done a good job putting Russian snipers into Ajax's mod, so perhaps you might like to further expand it by putting other units in there too like the new ones mentioned above if they're not already in it, and call it something like 'Expanded Army List')

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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by Paul59 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:49 am

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:22 am
I've just had another look at 1.1 Random forces and can confirm that these new units do sometimes appear in it in various years-
GERMAN-
Jagdtiger, Sturmtiger, Kubelwagen, Flak 30AA, Sd251/17AA, Sdkfz 222
But as yet I haven't seen a Pz I or Maus.

RUSSIAN-
I've seen the T-35 and AT rifles, but haven't yet seen a Katyusha.

Anyway on second thoughts perhaps I was being too fussy about what units should be in random selections, because after all RANDOM means RANDOM, so from now on i'll shut up and take it on the chin whatever random force your 1.1 mod dishes out..:)

PS- Besides, we can always use Ajax's fixed Army List selections to largely remove the random element.
(You've already done a good job putting Russian snipers into Ajax's mod, so perhaps you might like to further expand it by putting other units in there too like the new ones mentioned above if they're not already in it, and call it something like 'Expanded Army List')

Thanks OldSpike

Here is an updated version of my Random Skirmish Mod, now 1.2.

LINK DELETED SEE REVISED MOD HERE:

viewtopic.php?f=312&p=817400#p817400

I was starting to wonder if the points cost of the units was a factor in how often they appear, so I looked at the points costs of the new units. There were a few discrepancies, amazingly the Pz I was rated at 100 pts, which is far more than a Pz III! So that might have had a bearing on it not appearing. I have now reduced the Pz Is cost to a more reasonable 34, and reduced it's SkirmishInfo to 3, it now appears about 25% of the time up to 1941, so I think that is okayish.

Really the Maus should be as rare as hen's teeth, so I am not too worried about that, but I have lowered it's Skirmishinfo to 1 (!), and lowered it's points cost, but the thing still does not want to appear!

The Katyusha is not available until July 1941, but I did a few tests with that date and it did not appear at all in about 20 tries. So I have reduced its Skirmishinfo to 3, and now it is appearing about 25% of the time, which seems okay.

I made a few adjustments to a few other units. Chiefly, I reduced the Skirmishinfo value of the King Tiger, it was popping up more than Tiger Is. Also I did a nifty little edit of the Soviet T-26 so that it appears frequently in 1941, but rarely in 42 and 43. I won't bore you with the technical details!

That's a good idea about expanding Ajax's lists, I might do that at some point.

cheers

Paul
Last edited by Paul59 on Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by PoorOldSpike » Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:20 pm

Paul59 wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:49 am
Here is an updated version of my Random Skirmish Mod, now 1.2.
Hmm the Pz1 and Katyusha are now appearing in 1.2, but not the Rumanian R-2 and the Rumanian gun.
And the Maus is still not appearing, and now the Kingtiger has vanished too, sacrilege..:)

Suggestion- maybe all the tweaking is having a "butterfly's wing" effect on the whole mod, where tweaks might be detrimentally unbalancing the mathematical algorithms in some way.
Adding new units might also be cluttering up the selection screens too, for example it's debatable whether we really need a Pz1, Kubel and R-2.
In short I think the whole mod might be morphing into a lumbering Frankenstein's monster, haha..:)
Perhaps it might be worth considering scrapping 1.1 and 1.2 and going back to 1.0 to get a clean slate, then carefully making small changes one at a time and observing the effect before introducing more changes.

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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by Paul59 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:39 pm

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:20 pm
Paul59 wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:49 am
Here is an updated version of my Random Skirmish Mod, now 1.2.
Hmm the Pz1 and Katyusha are now appearing in 1.2, but not the Rumanian R-2 and the Rumanian gun.
And the Maus is still not appearing, and now the Kingtiger has vanished too, sacrilege..:)

Suggestion- maybe all the tweaking is having a "butterfly's wing" effect on the whole mod, where tweaks might be detrimentally unbalancing the mathematical algorithms in some way.
Adding new units might also be cluttering up the selection screens too, for example it's debatable whether we really need a Pz1, Kubel and R-2.
In short I think the whole mod might be morphing into a lumbering Frankenstein's monster, haha..:)
Perhaps it might be worth considering scrapping 1.1 and 1.2 and going back to 1.0 to get a clean slate, then carefully making small changes one at a time and observing the effect before introducing more changes.
The Romanian units are not intended to be present in the Skirmishes! I did not think you would notice them! It is far too complicated to explain, but I had to include them in the mod for it to work with my build of the game. Of course, I could make them appear in Skirmishes, but do we really want random Romanian units popping up in mainly German forces, that is probably not too realistic. That begs the question with what to do with the Italian Infantry, should I stop them appearing in Skirmishes too?

The King Tiger should still appear, but much less frequently. I think it was still popping up when I was testing this morning. Originally it was appearing more often than The Tiger I, so I had to make it rarer.

You are probably correct to say that the tweaks have a knock on effect with each other, but I think that 1.2 is infinitely superior to 1.0 and 1.1, so I don't want to go back.

As for Frankenstein's monsters, if you are familiar with my mods for P&S and FOG2, you will know that I love Frankenstein's monsters!
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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by Paul59 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:45 pm

You might not realise it, but there are a few vanilla units that never appear in Skirmishes;

Brandenburgers
Supply Trucks
German Ambulances

They are in the Squads.csv file because they are used in the vanilla Campaigns, but Slitherine did not want them in Skirmishes so they have a SkirmishInfo value of 0, and that stops them appearing. I used the same trick to stop the Romanian units appearing.
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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by Paul59 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:11 pm

After a bit more testing I can see that the King Tigers are appearing, but far too rarely for my liking. This game should be fun after all, so I will take their SkirmishInfo back to the original setting in the next version. They will probably appear just as frequently as Tiger Is after May 1944, but so be it.

I will take out the Kubel and the new Sdkfz 251-17 to see if that improves the selections, you might be right that the increased numbers of units might interfere with things.
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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by Paul59 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:54 pm

I have finally got the Maus appearing in Skirmish mode!

The trick is to increase the SeasonalModifier value to 150, that makes it more likely to be picked in the Winter months. I am not sure what counts as a winter month for BA2, but you can't go wrong if you set the date to December 1945, then there will probably be a Maus or two!

I will post the 1.3 version of the mod, including this fix, later today or tomorrow.

cheers

Paul
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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by PoorOldSpike » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:42 am

Okay let me know when 1.3 is released and I'll get on it, no sense in me wasting any more time on the obsolete earlier versions..:)

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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by TankerOne » Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:28 am

Hello,

I have be reading this form, and worker if you could make it so iPad users can have it for better skirmishes. If you don't know how to do it, just have Pip host it as a official scenario

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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by Paul59 » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:21 am

TankerOne wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:28 am
Hello,

I have be reading this form, and worker if you could make it so iPad users can have it for better skirmishes. If you don't know how to do it, just have Pip host it as a official scenario
This is very much a work in progress. When it is ready for general release I will look into the iPad issue.
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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by Paul59 » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:38 am

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:42 am
Okay let me know when 1.3 is released and I'll get on it, no sense in me wasting any more time on the obsolete earlier versions..:)
Here is the latest version, 1.3:

LINK DELETED SEE REVISED MOD HERE:

viewtopic.php?f=312&p=817400#p817400

Here are the changes:

King Tiger was 4, now 3. So back to the original setting. It will now be quite common after May 1944, but that is better than very rarely.

Removed Italian Infantry, Kubelwagen and Sdkfz 251/17 from Skirmishes.

Romanian units have been removed completely. I have found a way around my problem!

Maus SeasonalModifier changed to 150, points increased back to 400, and SkirmishInfo to 3. The beasts will now appear in Skirmish mode if you pick a date in the winter of 1945, October to December should do the trick. Note that you don't have to pick snow terrain to make the game think it is winter, the month is the critical factor.


cheers

Paul
Last edited by Paul59 on Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by PoorOldSpike » Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:40 pm

Okay I've just analysed 1.3 with multiple selection tests every June (and April in 1945) with a 'very large' attacking force.

RUSSIAN
Jun 41-A nice assortment of tanks but no KV-1's and no KV-2's. I didn't see any T-35's either.

Jun 42- The only main tank I saw was the T-34/41, so the KV-1 and KV-2 could be added for a bit of variety.

Jun 43- Very nice, the T-34/43 is supported by the SU-122, SU-76 and Katyusha.

Jun 44- Nicer still, the T-34/85 appears as does the SU-85 and SU-152, but aargh, no IS-2 Stalins!

April 45- No Stalins here too! In fact the force is almost identical with the Jun 44 selection, no apparent difference.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

GERMAN-
Jun 41- A nice selection of units but the Sturmpanzer SiG33 is noticeable by its absence. (Incidentally the Pz IIIJ (long 50mm gun) shouldn't really be in June 41 as it didn't appear historically til later in the year)

Jun 42- Surprisingly there are no PzIVF2's and PziVG's available (long 75mm), yet historically they were available in Jun 42 for the drive on Stalingrad.

Jun 43- Nice selection.

Jun 44- Another nice selection

Apr 45- Ditto, and now the Kingtiger is strutting its stuff..:)

(I tested Dec 45 too and the Maus put in an appearance)

Finally, I didn't see any of the following units at all-
German rocket-firing halftracks, and Jagdpanther, Hummel, Wespe.

As I said all my tests were with a very large attacking force, so I don't know if the games selection maths hold true for a defending force, or for Meetings or Symmetric battles. I wish a dev would come here to talk to us..:)

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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by Paul59 » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:32 pm

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:40 pm
Okay I've just analysed 1.3 with multiple selection tests every June (and April in 1945) with a 'very large' attacking force.

RUSSIAN
Jun 41-A nice assortment of tanks but no KV-1's and no KV-2's. I didn't see any T-35's either.

Jun 42- The only main tank I saw was the T-34/41, so the KV-1 and KV-2 could be added for a bit of variety.

Jun 43- Very nice, the T-34/43 is supported by the SU-122, SU-76 and Katyusha.

Jun 44- Nicer still, the T-34/85 appears as does the SU-85 and SU-152, but aargh, no IS-2 Stalins!

April 45- No Stalins here too! In fact the force is almost identical with the Jun 44 selection, no apparent difference.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

GERMAN-
Jun 41- A nice selection of units but the Sturmpanzer SiG33 is noticeable by its absence. (Incidentally the Pz IIIJ (long 50mm gun) shouldn't really be in June 41 as it didn't appear historically til later in the year)

Jun 42- Surprisingly there are no PzIVF2's and PziVG's available (long 75mm), yet historically they were available in Jun 42 for the drive on Stalingrad.

Jun 43- Nice selection.

Jun 44- Another nice selection

Apr 45- Ditto, and now the Kingtiger is strutting its stuff..:)

(I tested Dec 45 too and the Maus put in an appearance)

Finally, I didn't see any of the following units at all-
German rocket-firing halftracks, and Jagdpanther, Hummel, Wespe.

As I said all my tests were with a very large attacking force, so I don't know if the games selection maths hold true for a defending force, or for Meetings or Symmetric battles. I wish a dev would come here to talk to us..:)
I will give you a full reply a bit later, but for now I shall say that it looks like the game is not reading the availability dates correctly! There are also some strange mistakes in the vanilla availability dates. If you check July 1942, you will have no T34s at all, and the T60 is the soviet main battle tank!
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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by Paul59 » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:39 pm

Thanks Oldspike,

Yes, some advice from the developers would be nice, but we seem to be making some progress.

I did some testing myself and the KVs and T35 do occasionally appear in the other types of skirmish, but not in Attacking ones! At the moment there is nothing I can do about that, but I am a bit disappointed in how infrequently the KV1s appear. However, if I change their "SkirmishInfo" to 3 they will then be as common as T34s. I tried to use the same trick that I did with the Maus, and increase their SeasonalMultiplier so that they would be more common in winter, but it had no effect on the KVs!

I noticed that the SU76i has an availability start date of March 41, which is extremely odd, as they were built on captured PzIII chassis! I will change it to March 43 to March 44. That might have a small beneficial knock on effect for the appearance rates of real early war tanks.

That is odd that you only get T34s in June 42. I am also seeing this, but the BT7s availability is to June 42 so there should be loads of them, just as in June 1941! After some more experimentation, it seems that the BT7s stop appearing from May 1942, that's two months short of what it should be according to the Squads.csv file! It seems like the game is not reading the dates correctly!

The IS-2s do occasionally turn up in the other types of scenario, it seems they are another unit that is shy of the Attack skirmishes! I will try amending their "SkirmishInfo" to 3, and see what happens.

The Sig33 is another unit that does not seem to like Attack skirmishes, I can confirm that it does occasionally appear in the other types of Skirmish.

The PzIIIJ has an incorrect start date, March 1941! I shall change it. Incidentally, a few of these vanilla units seem to have incorrect availability dates, I should check them a some point.

The PzIVF2 has a correct start date of May 1942, but you seem to be right, it just does not want to appear until July 1942! This is probably another example of the game not reading the availability dates correctly! It looks like I will have to change it to March 1942 to get it appear at the right time.

I have definitely seen the Sdkfz with rockets, Hummel, Jagdpanther, and Wespe, but they were probably in the other types of Skirmish, not Attacks.

As I mentioned in the previous post, I have found a black hole in the availability of the T34s. With the vanilla games dates the T34-41 should be available up to August 1942, and the T34-43 is available from September 1942, so there should be no gap. But because the game is not reading the dates correctly the T34-41 ends in June, and the T34-43 does not start until November, so no T34s are appearing from July to October 1942!

It would be quite a big job, but I might have to go through all the start and end dates, check they are correct and then make sure the start dates are two months earlier, and the end dates two months later.

In conclusion, it has to be said that this BA2 Skirmish feature is a very mysterious thing!

Hopefully I will post a new version of the mod sometime tomorrow.
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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by PoorOldSpike » Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:26 am

Paul59 wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:39 pm
Hopefully I will post a new version of the mod sometime tomorrow.
Here's a 'streamlining' idea-
The average player (including me) isn't too concerned about exact month-by-month dates, for example he just wants a set of representative units for each year.
Therefore 1941 could include Pz38T, PzIIIF(short 50), PzIVD(short 75), Marder I, Jpz 1, Sig33, and for the Russians the T-34/41, BT-7, T-26, T-28, KV-1, KV-2.

Likewise,1942/3/4/5 could include sets of units for those years to give a total of only 5 unit sets in 'Skirmish' instead of the over-convoluted 50 month-by-month sets.

The randomising algorithms would still be in effect, so that in 1941 for example one selection might throw up a force consisting mostly of PzIIIF's, and another selection might throw up a mostly IVD force etc.
Similarly, one selection might be heavy with riflemen, and another selection heavy with submachinegunners etc.

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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by Paul59 » Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:02 am

No need for that. I don't give up so easily. The date problem is not that bad, most units have availability either starting well before June 1941, or extending past May 1945, or both, so it did not take long last night to correct them all.

The afv unit selection is looking not too bad now, although I have not looked much at the infantry yet.

There are some continuing problems, mainly I would really like to slightly increase the availability of the KV-1. Unfortunately, a SkirmishInfo value of 3 means they are in nearly every battle and outnumber all other Soviet tanks put together. While a SkirmishInfo of 4 means they are very rare. I might see if the game will accept a value inbetween, like 3.5, but I very much doubt it will.

I have found that the Attack option gives a very boring selection of common units. Trying Symmetric often produces a much more interesting unit choice, normally including two or three normally rare units.
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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by PoorOldSpike » Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:00 am

Paul59 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:02 am
I would really like to slightly increase the availability of the KV-1. Unfortunately, a SkirmishInfo value of 3 means they are in nearly every battle and outnumber all other Soviet tanks put together...
..I have found that the Attack option gives a very boring selection of common units. Trying Symmetric often produces a much more interesting unit choice, normally including two or three normally rare units.
1- If the "too many KV-1s'" issue can't be solved, one way round it would be to only buy a couple at the purchase screen and spend most of our cash on other types, or let a dice roll do our buying for us with the rolls weighted slightly against KV-1's.
I already use a 10-sided dice to introduce a random element into Ajax's Army Lists; the lists are rigidly fixed, so I let the dice tell me what I'm allowed to buy.
"I have set my life upon a cast and will stand the hazard of the die"- Shakesp's Richard III before Battle of Bosworth

2- I've dabbled with Symmetrics and Meetings but at the moment I don't think I like them because basically they're a head-on clash in the centre of the map, so most of the fighting takes place there, and vast areas of the map are never used.
By contrast 'Attack' battles must sweep down the whole length of the map to reach the objectives, and when Defending we have to keep making tactical withdrawals while falling back into our territory to set up new kill zones to hold the AI advance in check.

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Re: Skirmish battle query

Post by Paul59 » Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:36 am

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:00 am
Paul59 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:02 am
I would really like to slightly increase the availability of the KV-1. Unfortunately, a SkirmishInfo value of 3 means they are in nearly every battle and outnumber all other Soviet tanks put together...
..I have found that the Attack option gives a very boring selection of common units. Trying Symmetric often produces a much more interesting unit choice, normally including two or three normally rare units.
1- If the "too many KV-1s'" issue can't be solved, one way round it would be to only buy a couple at the purchase screen and spend most of our cash on other types, or let a dice roll do our buying for us with the rolls weighted slightly against KV-1's.
I already use a 10-sided dice to introduce a random element into Ajax's Army Lists; the lists are rigidly fixed, so I let the dice tell me what I'm allowed to buy.
"I have set my life upon a cast and will stand the hazard of the die"- Shakesp's Richard III before Battle of Bosworth

2- I've dabbled with Symmetrics and Meetings but at the moment I don't think I like them because basically they're a head-on clash in the centre of the map, so most of the fighting takes place there, and vast areas of the map are never used.
By contrast 'Attack' battles must sweep down the whole length of the map to reach the objectives, and when Defending we have to keep making tactical withdrawals while falling back into our territory to set up new kill zones to hold the AI advance in check.
Yes, the player can impose limits on his purchasing in some cases, although I am sure I have seen times when as many as 7 KV-1s have been a "fixed" purchase (this is with the KV-1s set to a SkirmishInfo of 3 of course), and there is nothing that the player can do about it. The main problem though is that the AI presumably gets the same spread of unit choices as the player, so when playing a Defend scenario in 1941 the attacking AI will nearly always have tons of KV-1s, not very historical in my view, and although it would be challenging might get a bit frustrating after a while.

I have not given up on the KV problem though, I might well come up with a solution in time. It took me over a year to find a solution to a modded FOG2 banner problem, that was baffling even the developers, so don't give up just yet!
Field of Glory II Scenario Designer - Age of Belisarius, Rise of Persia, and Wolves at the Gate.

Field of Glory II Medieval Scenario Designer.

FOGII TT Mod Creator

Warhammer 40,000: Sanctus Reach Tournament Scenario Designer.

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