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Disappointing guardsmen performance against basic infantry

Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:09 pm
by Plaid
General purpose IG infantry (guardsmen and conscripts) should be much stronger, than they are now.

Units of guardsmen as they are now are disappointing and virtually useless - only 20 men (common mob of basic ork boyz is 35), weak weapon, poor accuracy, helpless in melee.

Background-wise Guardsmen supposed to be able to easily dispatch gretchins and engage both type of basis boyz (slugga/shoota) with mixed results. In game they are just getting decimated with very minor damage to orks. If squad of guards engage squad of boyz, orks will win every time losing less than 10 strength points and it is wrong.



Possible solutions:

Larger squads - 35 for guard, 50 for conscript. Guardsmen supposed to be not very strong, but numerous. Currently even elite mega armor nobs have larger squads, than standard guard - thats nonsence.

Impove weapon stats - lasgun has RoF 2, volcano cannon has RoF 2 come on... Should be 4 probably. Also more strength and some AP please. They have plasmas/meltas/grenade launchers etc among them, not only lasguns. Ork shoota which is essencially crude (bad) autogun has 25 AP for some unknown reason.

Add melee weapon - (thats actually true for most troops). Why hive gangers have "knives" and guards don't have their bayonets?


Its not one of a hundred veteran-something-with-something-spacemarine unit, which is never used even in tabletop - it is main unit of the whole Imperial Guard army. Make them useful please.

Re: Disappointing guardsmen performance against basic infant

Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:29 pm
by IainMcNeil
The patch raise the basic squad size to 30.

Re: Disappointing guardsmen performance against basic infant

Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:00 pm
by Aekar
I believe guardsmen are poor when isolated, and strong with support (as mortar support, fire support, etc).
I pretty much think basic melee orks (not gretchin) should be able to fight isolated guardsmen and get the upper hand.
In that respect, that performed well.

I can't wait to try the patched version, of course :)
It shall be even better.

Re: Disappointing guardsmen performance against basic infant

Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:19 pm
by Plaid
Aekar wrote:I believe guardsmen are poor when isolated, and strong with support (as mortar support, fire support, etc).
I pretty much think basic melee orks (not gretchin) should be able to fight isolated guardsmen and get the upper hand.
In that respect, that performed well.
Partly true, but two problems arise with current realisation.

1. Guardsmen have their chance to kill orks before they even reach melee (in TT and other warhammer games). But not in this game. Here ranged damage is very low compared to melee damage. Full guardsmen unit can do 4-8 damage to basic orc squad. Even 3 squads of guardsmen can't gun down 1 squad of boyz, its odd. In melee on the contrary even gretchins wipe out large portion of guard squad in single attack.

2. Guardsmen also currenty lose vs basic ranged orks (shoota boyz). Thats also odd. Normally guards are better than common orks in this aspect (better armor, better ranged accuracy)
By the way non-elite spacemarines also lose vs shoota boyz. Is it also OK?

Re: Disappointing guardsmen performance against basic infant

Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:53 pm
by McMatthew
i like the idea of giving all units a basic melee weapon like bayonets or combat blades for space marines but I don't know how much coding that would take. As for guardsman balance they shouldn't be good units. Imperial guards is about tanks the basic infantry isn't supposed to be too good

Re: Disappointing guardsmen performance against basic infant

Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:57 pm
by Galdred
space Marines are crippled by their unit strength of 10. I don t like the arbitrary effect unit strength has on efficiency. I wish unit strengths would be more consistent (ie always 30 for infantry, 15 for "big" infantry(terminators, centurions), 7for tanks, 2 for superheavies. It seems very odd that Space Marines adopt stupid combat formations to maximise their own casualties.

Re: Disappointing guardsmen performance against basic infant

Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:56 pm
by McMatthew
Galdred wrote:space Marines are crippled by their unit strength of 10. I don t like the arbitrary effect unit strength has on efficiency. I wish unit strengths would be more consistent (ie always 30 for infantry, 15 for "big" infantry(terminators, centurions), 7for tanks, 2 for superheavies. It seems very odd that Space Marines adopt stupid combat formations to maximise their own casualties.
It's for balance. It probably also has something to do with the kind of tactics they use. A very large unit (ex. A blob of conscripts) would make easy targets and would probably lower their defense

Re: Disappointing guardsmen performance against basic infant

Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 12:12 am
by Galdred
McMatthew wrote: It's for balance. It probably also has something to do with the kind of tactics they use. A very large unit (ex. A blob of conscripts) would make easy targets and would probably lower their defense
Higher price for Space Marines should be enough for balance. 7 predators with 2 heavy bolters and 1 lascannon or 10 marines with one bolter...That is very balanced indeed...
The gamr mechanics should not make the tactics they use look more stupid than the orks' organisation.

Re: Disappointing guardsmen performance against basic infant

Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:05 am
by Dragoon.
Galdred wrote:
McMatthew wrote: It's for balance. It probably also has something to do with the kind of tactics they use. A very large unit (ex. A blob of conscripts) would make easy targets and would probably lower their defense
Higher price for Space Marines should be enough for balance. 7 predators with 2 heavy bolters and 1 lascannon or 10 marines with one bolter...That is very balanced indeed...
The gamr mechanics should not make the tactics they use look more stupid than the orks' organisation.
Also in my opionion all Space Marines infantry units should have 3hp per figure. Not just Assault and Terminators considering the extensive gene seed mutations, organ and cybernetic implants those guys receive, and a power armor on top of that to show off. My goodness those guys even have two hearths!

Re: Disappointing guardsmen performance against basic infant

Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:25 am
by Aekar
I think it is confusing to talk about Space Marines in the Guardsmen thread.

I understand what you mean with a 3 hp request.
Space Marines have currently 2 health, which is double health, and good armor; I haven't tried a full army of them though, but I believe the only (strong) problem you have with survivability of SMs is that when they are available they fight many Mega Nobz, Battle Fortresses, etc. That's pretty tough. SMs can fight Orks or even a Mega Nob and beat it, but the problem with Orks is always when they are ten to one.

To compare SMs you should make them fight Guardsmen 1 on 1 and see when happens.
And with the 20 Strength only of Lasguns, I guess what the result would be...
Even with enough Guardsmen to have the same cost, without an organization with support units, I don't think the Guardsmen win.
Having support is the whole purpose of the game, though.