I am in love again.

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kondi754
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Re: I am in love again.

Post by kondi754 » Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:24 pm

terminator wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:09 pm
kondi754 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:34 am
EDIT. Raskova accepted Litvak for military service indeed
These regiments, which they write about in Wikipedia, eventually landed in the deep rear of the front and were stationed as anti-aircraft cover for large factories several thousand kilometers from the front lines
Litvak and her 3 friends were the only ones who served in fighter front units and fought with the enemy.
- The 586th Fighter Aviation Regiment: This unit was the first to take part in combat (April 16, 1942) of the three female regiments and take part in 4,419 combat missions (125 air battles and 38 kills). Lydia Litvyak and Yekaterina Budanova were assigned to the unit before joining the 437th IAP in the fighting over Stalingrad and became the world's only two female fighter aces (with 5 each, although soviet propaganda claims 12 and 11 victories respectively), both flying the Yak-1 fighter.
- The 46th Taman Guards Night Bomber Aviation Regiment: This was the best known of the regiments and was commanded by Yevdokiya Bershanskaya. It originally began service as the 588th Night Bomber Regiment, but was redesignated in February 1943 as recognition for service which would tally almost 24,000 combat missions by the end of the war. Their aircraft was the Polikarpov Po-2, an outdated biplane. The Germans were the ones however who gave them the name that they are most well known as, The Night Witches.
-The 125th Guards Bomber Aviation Regiment was one of the three Soviet women's aviation regiments founded by Marina Raskova at the start of the Second World War. The unit was founded as the 587th Bomber Aviation Regiment in the 223rd Bomber Air Division, 2nd Bomber Aviation Corps of the 16th Air Army on 8 October 1941, and later honored with the guards designation, being renamed 125th Guards Bomber Aviation Regiment in September 1943 and reorganized into 4th Guards Bomber Aviation Division, 1st Bomber Aviation Corps, 3rd Air Army, in the 1st Baltic Front. Unlike the 46th Taman Guards Night Bomber Aviation Regiment, which used Polikarpov Po-2 utility aircraft, the unit was assigned modern Petlyakov Pe-2 aircraft, which caused some resentment among male units that had older aircraft. Throughout the course of the war, the unit flew 1,134 missions and dropped over 980 tons of bombs on the Axis.

PS: sorry to quote The Free Encyclopedia again :?
I know that but I wrote about fighter units not bomber units.
This 586th Fighter Rgt were incidentally on the front and was send later to the rear to protect factories, so most of these 4,000 combat missions were reconnaissance flights over the Volga region without contact with the enemy
On the other hand, these 125 air battles and 38 kills are mostly the result of Litvak, Budanova and their 2 friends during their service in this regiment and later in the men's front units
Web encyclopedias are based on official data, basically only from Soviet times, and there are many inaccuracies there.
I'm not really writing about ideology now, just facts :wink:

bru888
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Re: Sorry Bru:)

Post by bru888 » Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:09 pm

kondi754 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:46 am
@Bru
Ok, I'm not going to write anything more than about the games available here. Waste of time. :(
But sometimes when I read what stupid things people write here, my blood storms and I can't help myself.
Sorry, Bru.
No, no, you were fine up to that point. I just detected a bit of rising heat in the conversation and thought I would head it off. Carry on, as I see you have already, with interesting discussion.
- Bru

KarisFraMauro
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Re: I am in love again.

Post by KarisFraMauro » Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:05 am

Hmm I vaguely seem to remember reading elsewhere about people in the USSR during the war sponsoring individual tanks and units... Might very well have been about this specific case. And in an odd way I'm reassured to discover I'm not the only one to have inadvertently stepped on a pseudo-political minefield in these forums ;) Although in my case it was discussing movies about WWII on the Panzer Corps section.

Anyway not for the first time I'll recommend "Ivan's War" by the British historian Catherine Merridale as an excellent source, including as it does interviews with Soviet veterans. Something that could not have been simple to arrange in the current environment! Since we all love wikipedia so much I thought I'd include a link to them, but somehow ended up with this...

https://archive.org/details/ivanswarlifedeat00merr_0

kondi754
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Re: I am in love again.

Post by kondi754 » Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:15 am

I think the fate of real people may be separated from the evaluation of the political system in which they had to live. Although it should be borne in mind that the political system they lived in made their lives even more difficult than those of Westerners during the war.

I think that knowledge about the USSR is still very superficial and you need to know the history of this country very well, also before the revolution, in order to understand what you are dealing with.

terminator
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Re: I am in love again.

Post by terminator » Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:11 am

kondi754 wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:15 am
I think the fate of real people may be separated from the evaluation of the political system in which they had to live. Although it should be borne in mind that the political system they lived in made their lives even more difficult than those of Westerners during the war.
We venture on a very slippery ground...
I met an old person not long ago who lived during the WWII in a western country. He told me of that time as "dark times".

kondi754
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Re: I am in love again.

Post by kondi754 » Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:00 pm

terminator wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:11 am
kondi754 wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:15 am
I think the fate of real people may be separated from the evaluation of the political system in which they had to live. Although it should be borne in mind that the political system they lived in made their lives even more difficult than those of Westerners during the war.
We venture on a very slippery ground...
I met an old person not long ago who lived during the WWII in a western country. He told me of that time as "dark times".
Ok, so if he told you it was a "dark times", so in USSR and other countries in the east or south-east (Poland, Yugoslavia, Greece) it was " very, very, very dark times" IMHO

EDIT. Greece for example, there was a great famine in the first fall and winter (1941/42) under German occupation, there, at least 100,000 Greeks died of starvation this winter
Overall, there died of starvation 300,000 Greeks in 1941-44

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Greece)

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Re: I am in love again.

Post by GabeKnight » Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:04 am

All that ideological discussions aside, I'm still hoping that after the beta phase, the commander pic of that lovely lady will get some love and contrast (or the like) to correct the nose-issue... :)

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Re: I am in love again.

Post by KarisFraMauro » Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:57 pm

I would not object to an improved nose either. The thing that got me in (a bit) of hot water elsewhere was drawing a distinction between what happened on the western and eastern fronts in WWII. To be clear, I would not have wanted to be in either! However as it was a movie thread I was expressing some frustration with the way western films depict every single encounter on the western front as being both pivotal and decisive. I get a mental image of the surprise with which soviet veterans greet the discovery it was Tom Hanks who defeated Hitler. And that's not even starting on what happened to them after the war. While it's natural to empasize the contribution of one's own nation, the way that eastern efforts are not so much downplayed as entirely erased is surreal to me. It's like making a movie about the amazon rainforest which entirely omits trees.

If there's anybody not already familiar with the song "Roads to Moscow" by Al Stewart, I'd say it has more worth than just about every effort hollywood has put out combined. Not gonna lie, the ending brings a tear to my eye every time I hear it...

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Re: I am in love again.

Post by GabeKnight » Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:56 pm

KarisFraMauro wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:57 pm
If there's anybody not already familiar with the song "Roads to Moscow" by Al Stewart [...]
I wasn't. Don't like the song, but you're right, the lyrics are really good. Thanks!

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Re: I am in love again.

Post by TripleCP » Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:25 am

https://youtu.be/9VIW3fVMC5w

"At the Elbe" by Fred Small is not the greatest tune, either, but the lyrics are powerful and it hits on the same subject of Western and especially American under-appreciation of the Red Army's war effort.
Last edited by TripleCP on Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
https://www.facebook.com/RussianFront75/

terminator
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Re: I am in love again.

Post by terminator » Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:05 am

TripleCP wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:25 am
https://youtu.be/9VIW3fVMC5w

"At the Elbe" by Fred Small is not the greatest tune, either, but the lyrics are powerful and it hits on the same subject of Western and especially American underappreciated of the Red Army's war effort.
Yet another subject that is likely to be controversial...
Let’s talk about the game and just the game.

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Re: I am in love again.

Post by TripleCP » Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:42 am

Agreed that there's no point in engaging in pro- or anti-Soviet diatribes but, seeing as the topic includes Soviet women at war, I hope no one objects to posting links to a couple articles by Dr. Reina Pennington. One is about Soviet servicewomen in general and the other is specifically about pilots. She's probably the most authoritative expert on the subject (in any language). Before she got her PhD, she served in as an intel officer and Soviet tactics analyst in the USAF. She's also the author of "Wings, Women and War: Soviet Airwomen in World War II Combat."

http://www.reinapennington.com/rjpPDFs/ ... itches.pdf

http://www.reinapennington.com/rjpPDFs/ ... 0Women.pdf
https://www.facebook.com/RussianFront75/

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Re: I am in love again.

Post by Shards » Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:16 am

bru888 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:02 pm
This is rather extraordinary, if Wikipedia has it correctly:

Along with her husband, Ivan Boiko, she raised 50,000 Soviet rubles from their savings to pay for the construction of a tank for the Soviet Army. As part of the effort, they appealed to be sent to the Eastern Front. A year later, she was appointed as a tank commander while holding the rank of Junior Lieutenant, and her husband was her engineer within the tank . . . They first entered battle during the Riga Offensive in 1944, and it was reported that they had destroyed five tanks and two guns in two weeks.
This could almost be the base plot for Valkyria Chronicles!

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Re: I am in love again.

Post by KarisFraMauro » Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:09 am

TripleCP wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:25 am
https://youtu.be/9VIW3fVMC5w

"At the Elbe" by Fred Small is not the greatest tune, either, but the lyrics are powerful and it hits on the same subject of Western and especially American under-appreciation of the Red Army's war effort.
Excellent song, and one I've never heard of before. Thank you. While I appreciate the potential for contention, I really don't think it's unfair to point out the difference in scale between the eastern and western fronts. Even accounting for the fog of war, it's a very substantial gulf accepted by all. The problem arises from the decidely unpleasant, and equally unambiguous, nature of the soviet government and Stalin. So provided one draws a distinction between the soldiers (neither angels nor monsters, merely humans) and their leaders, there shouldn't be any problem.

In the more than seventy years since these events transpired, how many films have hollywood made addressing the eastern front? I can only think of Enemy at the Gates, and it's not exactly held in high regard. This is from what must easily be hundreds of films. And I don't mean to single out the west for failing to recognize the contribution of the soviet soldier either. Eastern governments simply co-opted the sacrifices of their soldiers to prop up the same regime which sent them into the most awful meatgrinder the world has ever known, frequently armed with little more than broken tanks and dud ammunition. One wonders how bitter those annual "celebrations" of their achievements must feel.

In a perfect world the folks who made the excellent Chernobyl tv series would give a similar treatment to the eastern front. It'll never happen of course, last I heard the showrunners were working on Lord of the Rings for Amazon. Just doesn't feel fair to me somehow.

kondi754
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Re: I am in love again.

Post by kondi754 » Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:10 pm

I listened to these songs and without referring to the content, their stricktly music/artistic side is terrible for me. :roll:

@Karis
You complain about Hollywood, but there are so many films about the Patriotic War made in the USSR and now in Russia.
I believe that despite the obvious historical distortions and their propaganda character, many of them were outstanding battle movies.
For example, I really like the monumental 5-piece battle masterpiece "Liberation" (Osvobozhdenie) 1970-71

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_(film_series)

Osvobozhdenie_Proryv-719771252-large.jpg
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More to say, I have this whole war epic in my DVD library :mrgreen:
Brilliant for those times, there were shots from an airplane showing waffen-ss tanks near Prokhorovka, or others phenomenal showing the crossing of the Dnieper and fights on the Bukryn bridgehead, street fights in Berlin and many, many more.

The propaganda nature of this masterpiece doesn't bother me at all, which doesn't change the fact that I'm a determined anti-communist. :lol:

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Re: I am in love again.

Post by jeannot le lapin » Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:20 am

TripleCP wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:42 am
Agreed that there's no point in engaging in pro- or anti-Soviet diatribes but, seeing as the topic includes Soviet women at war, I hope no one objects to posting links to a couple articles by Dr. Reina Pennington. One is about Soviet servicewomen in general and the other is specifically about pilots. She's probably the most authoritative expert on the subject (in any language). Before she got her PhD, she served in as an intel officer and Soviet tactics analyst in the USAF. She's also the author of "Wings, Women and War: Soviet Airwomen in World War II Combat."

http://www.reinapennington.com/rjpPDFs/ ... itches.pdf

http://www.reinapennington.com/rjpPDFs/ ... 0Women.pdf
Thanks for the info :)

I finally went on a date with Aleksandra Boiko :D

sov3_09_Baltic44(3).jpg
sov3_09_Baltic44(3).jpg (57.71 KiB) Viewed 140 times

Sorry guys but this woman is no longer free :lol:

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