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ISU-122 Not firing in AT Support

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:39 pm
by kverdon
In a previous thread, that I cannot find now, it was mentioned by the developer that the SU-122 and ISU-122 had been confused with the SU-122 used as Assault/Arty support and the ISU-122 as AT/Arty support. I made my core adjustments based upon his remark. I noticed in the Bagration scenario that my ISU-122's were not firing in AT support. I believe this is the Issue:

ISU-122_AT;2205;ussr, ;land;tank;ISU-122_AT;;;;altanksheavy;rotalmtanks;AT_105mm_06;;;;track;20/4/1944;/;isu;210;6;;6;1;1;;100;;4;;5;;;;;;;artillery:ISU-122_ART;;;mechanical;mechanical;13-10;19-21;;;;;;16;20;16;16;16;;;heavyTreaded, weakFlanks,;;
SU-76M;1090;ussr,;land;anti_tank;SU-76M 0 0,;;;;altankmedium;rotalmtanks;AT_76.2mm_01;;;;track;17/3/1943;;su-76;175;4;;8;1;1;;100;;4;;;;;;;;;artillery:SU-76M_ART;;;mechanical;mechanical;9-6;12-14;;;;;;8;9;10;12;10;;;weakFlanks,;;

BTW here is a description of the ISU-122 from Wikipedia: "The ISU-122 (acronym of Istrebitelnaja - or Iosif Stalin-based - Samokhodnaya Ustanovka 122) was a Soviet assault gun used during World War II, mostly in the anti-tank role."

Re: ISU-122 Not firing in AT Support

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:51 pm
by bebro
kverdon wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:39 pm
In a previous thread, that I cannot find now, it was mentioned by the developer that the IS-122 and ISU-122 had been confused with the IS-122 used as Assault/Arty support and the ISU-122 as AT/Arty support. I made my core adjustments based upon his remark. I noticed in the Bagration scenario that my ISU-122's were not firing in AT support. I believe this is the Issue:

ISU-122_AT;2205;ussr, ;land;tank;ISU-122_AT;;;;altanksheavy;rotalmtanks;AT_105mm_06;;;;track;20/4/1944;/;isu;210;6;;6;1;1;;100;;4;;5;;;;;;;artillery:ISU-122_ART;;;mechanical;mechanical;13-10;19-21;;;;;;16;20;16;16;16;;;heavyTreaded, weakFlanks,;;
SU-76M;1090;ussr,;land;anti_tank;SU-76M 0 0,;;;;altankmedium;rotalmtanks;AT_76.2mm_01;;;;track;17/3/1943;;su-76;175;4;;8;1;1;;100;;4;;;;;;;;;artillery:SU-76M_ART;;;mechanical;mechanical;9-6;12-14;;;;;;8;9;10;12;10;;;weakFlanks,;;

BTW here is a description of the ISU-122 from Wikipedia: "The ISU-122 (acronym of Istrebitelnaja - or Iosif Stalin-based - Samokhodnaya Ustanovka 122) was a Soviet assault gun used during World War II, mostly in the anti-tank role."

There is no IS-122 in the game so I'm not sure what this is referring too.

Re: ISU-122 Not firing in AT Support

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:56 pm
by kverdon
kverdon wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:39 pm
In a previous thread, that I cannot find now, it was mentioned by the developer that the SU-122 and ISU-122 had been confused with the SU-122 used as Assault/Arty support and the ISU-122 as AT/Arty support. I made my core adjustments based upon his remark. I noticed in the Bagration scenario that my ISU-122's were not firing in AT support. I believe this is the Issue:

ISU-122_AT;2205;ussr, ;land;tank;ISU-122_AT;;;;altanksheavy;rotalmtanks;AT_105mm_06;;;;track;20/4/1944;/;isu;210;6;;6;1;1;;100;;4;;5;;;;;;;artillery:ISU-122_ART;;;mechanical;mechanical;13-10;19-21;;;;;;16;20;16;16;16;;;heavyTreaded, weakFlanks,;;
SU-76M;1090;ussr,;land;anti_tank;SU-76M 0 0,;;;;altankmedium;rotalmtanks;AT_76.2mm_01;;;;track;17/3/1943;;su-76;175;4;;8;1;1;;100;;4;;;;;;;;;artillery:SU-76M_ART;;;mechanical;mechanical;9-6;12-14;;;;;;8;9;10;12;10;;;weakFlanks,;;

BTW here is a description of the ISU-122 from Wikipedia: "The ISU-122 (acronym of Istrebitelnaja - or Iosif Stalin-based - Samokhodnaya Ustanovka 122) was a Soviet assault gun used during World War II, mostly in the anti-tank role."

Re: ISU-122 Not firing in AT Support

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:57 pm
by kverdon
Edited my original post to reflect the SU-122 not IS-122.

Re: ISU-122 Not firing in AT Support

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:59 pm
by bebro
kverdon wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:57 pm
Edited my original post to reflect the SU-122 not IS-122.
I see, well I explained our take on those big caliber SU/ISU types in the Red Storm thread. I don't intend to make fundamental changes on those units.

Re: ISU-122 Not firing in AT Support

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:08 pm
by kverdon
Ah now I see that. Let's just ignore history then. Fortunately for those with a more historical bent, its a easy units.csv change.

Re: ISU-122 Not firing in AT Support

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:10 pm
by bebro
That is easily possible indeed.

Re: ISU-122 Not firing in AT Support

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:21 pm
by prestidigitation
So I was pretty irritated by this when I first spotted it too, but it honestly didn’t end up mattering at all. I used them mostly as mobile artillery that could occasionally go tank mode and smack something.

The ISU-152 is probably better and I certainly used it plenty as both tank and artillery.

By contrast the dedicated tanks largely fell out of my roster in favor of more ISU action.

Re: ISU-122 Not firing in AT Support

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:32 pm
by kverdon
I can see why but seems a bit too “gamey” for my likes. The game seems to be pushing people in that direction.

Re: ISU-122 Not firing in AT Support

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:33 pm
by GabeKnight
I'll put some of them (back) into the AT class in my mod, me thinks. The US have some, the Japs have some and even the Italian roster has some nice mobile AT pieces. Seems fair.

Just doesn't feel right for the Germans to have that many AT units with them StuGs, Jagdpanthers etc. and the Soviets have what, the SU-100?

Re: ISU-122 Not firing in AT Support

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:36 pm
by kverdon
Yep, that’s what I did. Going to try to do the campaign with a more traditional core.

Re: ISU-122 Not firing in AT Support

Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:26 pm
by prestidigitation
GabeKnight wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:33 pm
I'll put some of them (back) into the AT class in my mod, me thinks. The US have some, the Japs have some and even the Italian roster has some nice mobile AT pieces. Seems fair.

Just doesn't feel right for the Germans to have that many AT units with them StuGs, Jagdpanthers etc. and the Soviets have what, the SU-100?
TBF the ISU series is really fantastic as is, and the biggest issue is actually with the T-34/85 and other mediums which have the same CP cost as the ISU but can't handle any German tanks without support. Or the IS-2, which is utterly useless in its current config, extremely expensive and +1CP vs the ISU series.

Re: ISU-122 Not firing in AT Support

Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:02 pm
by kverdon
Just curious but why do you say that the IS-2 is utterly useless in its current config, unless you mean the totally absurd cost, that I can't for the life of me justify.

Here are the costs for the Big Tanks In OOB:

Tiger 2: 345
Tiger 1: 265
PantherV: 265

IS-2 320 (WTH??????)

Ok, lets see if we can justify this on the Stats of the Vehicle:

Tiger 2
Attack Mech: 23-23
Attack Inf: 15-11
Def Mech:24
Def Inf: 20

Tiger 1
Attack Mech: 23-23
Attack Inf: 15-11
Def Mech: 22
Def Inf: 18

IS-2
Attack Mech: 19-21
Attack Inf: 16-12
Def Mech:22
Def Inf: 17

Clearly the cost cannot be justified by the IS-2s stats. It actually compares against a TIger I at 265 points. This is out of bounds historically as based upon what I've read the stats should be closer to:

IS-2
Attack Mech: 20-22
Attack Inf: 17-13
Def Mech:23
Def Inf: 17

So maybe the cost could be justified by the Rarity of the IS2

Here are some Production Numbers for Tanks produced in WWII and their associated OOB cost:

Tiger 2 - Produced 498 Cost 345
Tiger 1 - Produced 1347 Cost 265
Panther 2 - Produced 2961 Cost 265
Mark IV H - Produced 2324 Cost 190
Mark IV J - Produced 3160 Cost 175

IS-2 Produced 3854 Cost 320 ??????

From a production standpoint, again the IS-2 should cost about the same as Tiger 1 or Panther at best. If you were to up the stats to what I suggested I would expect the IS-2 to cost about 285.

The current cost is totally absurd and is what I think is driving people to the ISU-122 for a totally unrealistic core force.

Re: ISU-122 Not firing in AT Support

Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:50 pm
by bebro
kverdon wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:02 pm
Just curious but why do you say that the IS-2 is utterly useless in its current config, unless you mean the totally absurd cost, that I can't for the life of me justify.

Here are the costs for the Big Tanks In OOB:

Tiger 2: 345
Tiger 1: 265
PantherV: 265

IS-2 320 (WTH??????)

Ok, lets see if we can justify this on the Stats of the Vehicle:

Tiger 2
Attack Mech: 23-23
Attack Inf: 15-11
Def Mech:24
Def Inf: 20

Tiger 1
Attack Mech: 23-23
Attack Inf: 15-11
Def Mech: 22
Def Inf: 18

IS-2
Attack Mech: 19-21
Attack Inf: 16-12
Def Mech:22
Def Inf: 17

Clearly the cost cannot be justified by the IS-2s stats. It actually compares against a TIger I at 265 points. This is out of bounds historically as based upon what I've read the stats should be closer to:

IS-2
Attack Mech: 20-22
Attack Inf: 17-13
Def Mech:23
Def Inf: 17

So maybe the cost could be justified by the Rarity of the IS2

Here are some Production Numbers for Tanks produced in WWII and their associated OOB cost:

Tiger 2 - Produced 498 Cost 345
Tiger 1 - Produced 1347 Cost 265
Panther 2 - Produced 2961 Cost 265
Mark IV H - Produced 2324 Cost 190
Mark IV J - Produced 3160 Cost 175

IS-2 Produced 3854 Cost 320 ??????

From a production standpoint, again the IS-2 should cost about the same as Tiger 1 or Panther at best. If you were to up the stats to what I suggested I would expect the IS-2 to cost about 285.

The current cost is totally absurd and is what I think is driving people to the ISU-122 for a totally unrealistic core force.
I'm rather unimpressed by a comparison that has the IS-2 two times with different stats, and completely ignores the weakflanks trait of fixed/turretless vehicles like the SU/ISU line.

Re: ISU-122 Not firing in AT Support

Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2020 4:37 pm
by kverdon
Well I am equally unimpressed with your lack of actually reading what I wrote, if you give this level of attention to you research it explains a lot. If you had actually bothered to read what I wrote, the second set of stats is what I propose *Should* be the stats of the IS-2.

Re: ISU-122 Not firing in AT Support

Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2020 4:40 pm
by bebro
Thank you for your opinion on those stats. I happen to disagree.

Re: ISU-122 Not firing in AT Support

Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2020 5:14 pm
by kondi754
kverdon wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:02 pm

The current cost is totally absurd and is what I think is driving people to the ISU-122 for a totally unrealistic core force.
I think that a person who cares about the realistic core is able to build it this way. BTW, it will save a lot of resources. However, most players don't care.
I plan to play more historically next time - my core will be 3x T-34/85, 1x M4A2, 1x IS-2, 2x SU-85, 1x ISU-152 and 1x ISU-122

Re: ISU-122 Not firing in AT Support

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 2:55 am
by kverdon
Thanks Kondi? Is that enough artillery or do you dial more in if you have the CP?

I've restarted the campaign. I'm into the 2nd Crimea Scenario and running with this core:

2x IS2
3x T34/85
2x Su-85
2x Su-122
1x SU-152
1x 122 Towed Arty
1x Katyusha
3x Guards Inf
1x Heavy Inf
1xM17 AA

I have about 1300 RP in the bank after the last battle and refit/repair.

Re: ISU-122 Not firing in AT Support

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 2:28 pm
by GabeKnight
prestidigitation wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:26 pm
TBF the ISU series is really fantastic as is, and the biggest issue is actually with the T-34/85 and other mediums which have the same CP cost as the ISU but can't handle any German tanks without support. Or the IS-2, which is utterly useless in its current config, extremely expensive and +1CP vs the ISU series.
I may recheck the IS series, but for now I'm definitely putting the SU/ISU-122 and SU/ISU-152 units into the AT class. There's no real difference between the tank and anti_tank classes besides the support-AT trait. And I kinda like the classification "if it hasn't got a turret it's not a tank and should be classified as anti-tank or arty". And it can't be that wrong if PzC2 did the same... :)

Re: ISU-122 Not firing in AT Support

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:12 pm
by kondi754
kverdon wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 2:55 am
Thanks Kondi? Is that enough artillery or do you dial more in if you have the CP?

I've restarted the campaign. I'm into the 2nd Crimea Scenario and running with this core:

2x IS2
3x T34/85
2x Su-85
2x Su-122
1x SU-152
1x 122 Towed Arty
1x Katyusha
3x Guards Inf
1x Heavy Inf
1xM17 AA

I have about 1300 RP in the bank after the last battle and refit/repair.
Besides there will be 2x SU-76M, some towed arty (heavy and 76,2mm medium), 2x Katyushas I suppose