Questions about the specifics of some parts of the combat system

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prestidigitation
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Questions about the specifics of some parts of the combat system

Post by prestidigitation » Fri Oct 09, 2020 7:13 pm

How exactly does the penalty from being on a river work? Is it a modifier on the terrain, on the unit itself or on the combat? What is the magnitude of the effect?

How does the river being frozen impact this combat outcome?

Does snow have a combat effect? What about mud? I’ve noticed decorators for both and know they have a movement penalty (I suspect +1 to the move cost of a tile, so open terrain goes from 2 to 3 for example, but I haven’t bothered to math it out given how well movement is displayed), but I’m not sure what their impact is on combat exactly.

Is there a full list of different chassis types and their impact on movement costs?

What is the exact effect of entrenchment, and how does the level of entrenchment affect it? Does the entrenchment bonus get calculated before or after the efficiency penalty?

How exactly is the damage from AA/AT/Fighter reaction fire applied? Is it as a boost to the combat stats of the unit being attacked or does the unit itself make an attack? Does this attack happening before the actual combat have an impact on the combat (ex: lower incoming damage to the defender due to lower attacker strength)?

What is the exact numerical effect of the weak flanks trait?

What is the exact numerical impact of veterancy and does it vary between unit classes?
Last edited by prestidigitation on Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kondi754
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Re: Questions about the specifics of some parts of the combat system

Post by kondi754 » Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:06 pm

Wow
Very technical questions, I also want to know :wink:
(I play intuitively)

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Re: Questions about the specifics of some parts of the combat system

Post by StuccoFresco » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:47 pm

Following.

prestidigitation
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Re: Questions about the specifics of some parts of the combat system

Post by prestidigitation » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:32 pm

Any hopes of a developer comment on this? It’d also be nice to get the total combat formula but I suspect that’s a bridge too far :-)

bebro
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Re: Questions about the specifics of some parts of the combat system

Post by bebro » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:08 am

Well, I'm not the coder behind OOB, so I go mostly by trait descriptions:

viewtopic.php?f=264&t=47558&p=448062&hi ... ks#p448062

So, unfortunately I can't give you the exact numbers or formula on this stuff.

prestidigitation
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Re: Questions about the specifics of some parts of the combat system

Post by prestidigitation » Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:07 pm

bebro wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:08 am
Well, I'm not the coder behind OOB, so I go mostly by trait descriptions:

viewtopic.php?f=264&t=47558&p=448062&hi ... ks#p448062

So, unfortunately I can't give you the exact numbers or formula on this stuff.
Unfortunately that’s just the hover tooltip for the trait :D but I appreciate you looking!

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Re: Questions about the specifics of some parts of the combat system

Post by kondi754 » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:01 pm

I remembered that someone from the forum had experimented with modified artillery fire rates.
Unfortunately, I don't remember who and where it was, but I do remember that his report was very interesting.
I also think you can play around with modifying the coefficients in the units.csv file on your own (main game folder> OoBdata> content> data). It's best to use LibreOffice software to open this.

Horst
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Re: Questions about the specifics of some parts of the combat system

Post by Horst » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:00 pm

The editor is a wonderful tool to test mechanics if you take your time to learn its basics.

As far as I get it with the river, it's a terrain modifier that only applies in direct-combat. Ranged attacks aren't modified by the attacker or the defender as far as i have tested it.
Each climate has a different river factor:

[DEFAULT]
river_factor = 0.8 0.8
[WINTER]
river_factor = 0.9 0.9 (frozen)
[WET]
river_factor = 0.7 0.7
[ARID]
river_factor = 0.8 0.8

These factors are applied to the unit sitting on a river hex, no matter with a settlement or not.
The attack and defense values are modified by these factors. If the defender sits on a settlement, it still benefits from the settlement bonus what could cancel the penalty out. The attacker on a river still gets the river-factors applied if it attacks a unit on a non-river terrain.

The cover values that work like the river-penalty are mostly not different in vanilla for the climate types above. Only Rice gets changed from 0.9 to 0(?) in Winter. Lakes become traversable in Winter but you can't entrench there. The data can be found in terrain_x.csv files found in the installation folder.

The chassis_x.csv files can give you more clue about how much a terrain costs to be traversed for different chassis types in different climates. I won't go into detail here.

I don't know the entrenchment factor at moment, but maybe defense improves by +4 at 10, but don't quote me on that. E.g. if you got two equal units in combat, the combat result changes from +2/+2 to +1/+2 in favor of the entrenched unit. +1 about 4 attack-damage difference.
A unit with an Assault value ignores a certain number of entrenchment level and also removes that amount when attacking an entrenched unit.

I can't tell at moment how strong a supportAA fire from either fighter or AA-gun/ship is.Fact is that all damage is applied at same time, so there is zero defense bonus from other supporting defenders. This game has no initiative values like Panzer Corps where such mechanics would apply.

outflankingPercentage = 0.3
envelopmentPercentage = 0.5
ATsupportPercentage = 0.333
minimalEscapePercentage = 0.5
defensiveBonus = 0.2 (possibly not used anymore)
weakFlanksPenalty = 0.5
maxOutflankPenalty = 0.3
maximumSpeedDifference = 4 (not working?)
AMBUSH_ATTACK_FACTOR = 0.2
AMBUSH_DEFENSE_FACTOR = 0.4
bushidoBonus = 2

Here's an example of unit experience:
5-star vs 5-star: 2+ : 2+
5-star vs 0-star: 3+ : 2
0-star vs 0-star: 3 : 3
0-star vs. 5-star: 2 : 3+
In general, the higher the base attack/defense values, the better the experience bonus gets as it's also a factor.

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Re: Questions about the specifics of some parts of the combat system

Post by GabeKnight » Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:25 pm

Yes, this is the way all these kind of threads end... :lol: :roll: :|

Horst, that's one reason why I stopped posting many findings from my own tests. First, someone asks a serious questions about how OoB mechanics works. But then, when you answer, it's always like this: "Huh? What? Math? Decimals? What's that? I have to calculate myself? Huh? Nooooo!..." :wink:

I have still a lot of your tests/results stored in my mod's "knowledgebase".
Horst wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:00 pm
The cover values that work like the river-penalty are mostly not different in vanilla for the climate types above. Only Rice gets changed from 0.9 to 0(?) in Winter.
It's a bug. Already reported by "The Daily Bugette". Still not fixed, though.

prestidigitation
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Re: Questions about the specifics of some parts of the combat system

Post by prestidigitation » Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:59 pm

Buddy I’m just slammed at work and haven’t had a chance to reply to the detailed post Horst provided.

GabeKnight
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Re: Questions about the specifics of some parts of the combat system

Post by GabeKnight » Sun Jan 03, 2021 2:55 pm

GabeKnight wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:25 pm
Yes, this is the way all these kind of threads end... :lol: :roll: :|
Yeah. Everyone's extremely busy at home during the lockdown... :roll:

Q.E.D.

You know, usually I would let this rest in peace. I mean, courtesy and internet just don't mix, everybody knows that. Look here, I'm no exception.

And of course you can't force someone to invest time and effort writing a response to some post, even if someone else has invested at least an hour to write a response to one's own questions. But I think, that it's not really too much to ask for a simple "thank you"...

In my opinion that's just plain rude treating fellow community members who have invested their time to help like this. And especially Horst, someone who actually knows what he's talking about when it comes to OoB...

bru888
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Re: Questions about the specifics of some parts of the combat system

Post by bru888 » Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:10 pm

I am doubtful that is what presti meant. And I needed to contemplate your "Yes, this is the way all these kind of threads end..." post to divine its meaning. I think.

You were deferring to Horst, who has the capability of coming down definitively with his math, decimals, and calculations in order to answer inquiries, thus "ending the thread."

Presti, although calling you "Buddy" which is often not friendly, was saying the thread was not over because he was busy, implying that he would have a response to Horst's findings. Then he lost interest, I suppose, because maybe Horst did actually end the thread. Which is a good thing, when he has the answers. ;)

If presti was being rude, it was to you, not Horst. And I don't think even that was his intention. Of course, if he wants to return and clarify the matter, he would be welcome to do so.

In any event, why are you digging up a thread from two and a half months ago just to dress him down? There are more important matters to discuss, such as conboy's new campaign, Erik's extensive portfolio, or maybe my own meager attempts? (You really would need to be desperate to relieve boredom by indulging in that last one. :roll: )
- Bru

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Re: Questions about the specifics of some parts of the combat system

Post by bru888 » Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:18 pm

Oh, wait a minute. My essentially good (and naive) nature led me astray on this one. :)

When you said "Horst, that's one reason why I stopped posting many findings from my own tests. First, someone asks a serious questions about how OoB mechanics works. But then, when you answer, it's always like this: Huh? What? Math? Decimals? What's that? I have to calculate myself? Huh? Nooooo!..." you were indeed referring to prestidigitation, explaining his lack of a response. I thought you were talking about yourself.

Looking at it this way, his "Buddy" comment was appropriate and justified. If I have it right, you were putting him down whether you intended to do so or not.

Please don't stir up a ruckus, Gabe. It's not like you and it's feeble to be responding to a perceived slight from October, now in January.

Presti, your forbearance as well, please.
- Bru

bru888
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Re: Questions about the specifics of some parts of the combat system

Post by bru888 » Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:26 pm

One more thing. If I needed a "thank you" every time that I tried to help somebody around here, I doubt that I would have 4,856 posts by now.
- Bru

prestidigitation
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Re: Questions about the specifics of some parts of the combat system

Post by prestidigitation » Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:07 pm

I had completely forgotten about this post!
Horst wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:00 pm
The editor is a wonderful tool to test mechanics if you take your time to learn its basics.

As far as I get it with the river, it's a terrain modifier that only applies in direct-combat. Ranged attacks aren't modified by the attacker or the defender as far as i have tested it.
Each climate has a different river factor:

[DEFAULT]
river_factor = 0.8 0.8
[WINTER]
river_factor = 0.9 0.9 (frozen)
[WET]
river_factor = 0.7 0.7
[ARID]
river_factor = 0.8 0.8


These factors are applied to the unit sitting on a river hex, no matter with a settlement or not.
The attack and defense values are modified by these factors. If the defender sits on a settlement, it still benefits from the settlement bonus what could cancel the penalty out. The attacker on a river still gets the river-factors applied if it attacks a unit on a non-river terrain.
So just to be clear, a unit sitting on any river tile (even one in a settlement) gets a penalty to its attack and defense stats of between .9 and .7, correct? Are these additive penalties or multiplicative? Seems likely to be additive based on the value changes I've seen for otherwise equivalent unit in otherwise equivalent terrain.

I wish these changes to the terrain combat factor were displayed in the terrain panel.
The cover values that work like the river-penalty are mostly not different in vanilla for the climate types above. Only Rice gets changed from 0.9 to 0(?) in Winter. Lakes become traversable in Winter but you can't entrench there. The data can be found in terrain_x.csv files found in the installation folder.
I've poked around a bit. When does "wet" terrain apply? Only when the rain graphic is playing?
The chassis_x.csv files can give you more clue about how much a terrain costs to be traversed for different chassis types in different climates. I won't go into detail here.
What exactly is the road factor? I'm guessing a reduction in movement cost for roads as that is how they tend to work in game, but the road factor is two columns each with two comma separated values. The heck?
I don't know the entrenchment factor at moment, but maybe defense improves by +4 at 10, but don't quote me on that. E.g. if you got two equal units in combat, the combat result changes from +2/+2 to +1/+2 in favor of the entrenched unit. +1 about 4 attack-damage difference.
This one is pretty crucial, entrenchment is a big part of the game. Would love a more detailed answer if someone can provide.
A unit with an Assault value ignores a certain number of entrenchment level and also removes that amount when attacking an entrenched unit.
Does that also apply to artillery assault fire or just direct combat?
I can't tell at moment how strong a supportAA fire from either fighter or AA-gun/ship is.Fact is that all damage is applied at same time, so there is zero defense bonus from other supporting defenders. This game has no initiative values like Panzer Corps where such mechanics would apply.
Unfortunately the answer to the AA/AT/Fighter reaction fire question is imo the most important. I know it sounds crazy, but my AT reaction fire protected tanks seem to take less damage than ones without said cover. I'm less sure of air attack. If someone has a detailed take on how exactly it works I'd love to hear it.

I'm going to say what I think the triggers are for each of the following bonuses/changes you listed, but I'm just guessing for all of them
outflankingPercentage = 0.3
maxOutflankPenalty = 0.3
Bonus for attacking a unit with an allied unit that has not expended its attack in a hex adjacent to the enemy but non-adjacent to our supported unit. Seems to apply some portion of the supporting units stats to the attacker, and definitely is better when using stronger units to support.
envelopmentPercentage = 0.5
No idea what this does, my best guess is the penalty an enemy unit gets when surrounded.
ATsupportPercentage = 0.333
Percentage of AT combat values added to defender? Or percentage of AT attack value used to attack enemy unit?
AMBUSH_ATTACK_FACTOR = 0.2
AMBUSH_DEFENSE_FACTOR = 0.4
Penalty ambushed attacker takes to their stats.
weakFlanksPenalty = 0.5
I think this only applies as an additional bonus when a weak flanks unit is receiving a supported attack. I think it may also apply in some way to artillery strikes.
bushidoBonus = 2
I know it is related to the Bushido skill, I have no idea what exactly it does.
minimalEscapePercentage = 0.5
Lowest value a unit with the Quick Retreat trait can have for their chance of escaping?
defensiveBonus = 0.2 (possibly not used anymore)
maximumSpeedDifference = 4 (not working?)
???
Here's an example of unit experience:
5-star vs 5-star: 2+ : 2+
5-star vs 0-star: 3+ : 2
0-star vs 0-star: 3 : 3
0-star vs. 5-star: 2 : 3+
In general, the higher the base attack/defense values, the better the experience bonus gets as it's also a factor.
So a difference of 5 levels of vet is equivalent to a gain of ~3atk and ~5def? What unit pair did you use for this test?

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