Karelian Isthmus

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ikbenrichard
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Karelian Isthmus

Post by ikbenrichard » Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:34 am

Hi,

It seems i cannot beat the mission Karelian Isthmus. Playing on normal difficulty.
I am kinda new to this game as in played a week or 3 now. So is there someone that can give me some decent tips?
Seems playing in defence or offense is both leading to defeat. Tried artillery, tried heavy inf and tried mass attack.

The 2 missions before this one i played rather well with a minimum casualties.

Uhu
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Re: Karelian Isthmus

Post by Uhu » Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:42 pm

Hi,

1., I think, one of the key to earn major victories (or sometimes - simply survive... :) ) is the right composition of your core force.
I would suggest, that you have 3x arty (2x 105mm is possible - one from upgrade -, if you have spared enough points), hopefully you captured the tanks at Tolvajeri - if not, than go back, and play again - and you should have 3x Ski Troops and 2x Heavy Inf, 2x Light AA (without trucks), 2x fighters, 2x level bombers. At least, this was my composition. I had to sell/upgrade one of the truck of an arty to have enough command point, but it worth.
AT guns and Engineers do not worth the money/command points...

2., Always try to concentrate your forces and do not split up on to much targets. OK, here you will have to partly. :) But still, focus always on that tactics. I put 2x 105mm in the middle north of the the woods and the 2x light AA to defend them. I fly the bombers and the fighters above them to lure the Soviet fighter here, and so I can shoot it down with the combined AA and fighter force. I put one of the heavy inf to the key points in the west and one in the east. The 3x ski troops will be put also in these 3 locations. The other arty goes to east. It will probably suffer from hostile arty, but still it is an essential asset there.

3., Having enough money. I you cannot efford these war materials, go back and replay the scns to make a better result by saving more money (or play it on easier difficulty).

- One tank of the enemy moves right after the beginning to north-northwest direction. With the ski troopers and the inf brought from Vipurii, it can be cut off and slowly destroyed from turn 2 on.
- Always use the ski troops, as firefighters and cut-off units, because they are so fast and can moving almost through everything!
- I also bring up the inf from the very southwest to assist in the battles at the western key point.
- I also move the inf, standing next to Kiviniemi to the east to help the others and concentrate the forces there.
- Try in the east to destroy, or at least strongly weaken the hostile gun as soon as possible (probably after annihillating the tank and the 2x heavy inf front of it).
- Use alwyas the help of the bunkers! They can shoot without retribution from the enemy. Try to lure the enemy next to them.
- Pay attention, that no hostile unit enters Vipurii, as the battle will be lost at that time. Also you have to hold 3x secondary VP's at once. If you loose 4, even if you would retake them, the battle will be lost.
- You can use the AA's later, when they have not so much work, to retake secondary VP's, if this are not endangered from near enemy units.
- I never try to destroy the fuel tank, as it takes horrible casualties. I deal with the bombers either. :) Hint: there are 3x fighters on the map. After you defeated them (strongly weakening is enough), your bombers are free to herass the enemy.

I hope, this helps, I do not want to give the whole solution. :) Anyway, because of the smart design, the battle is never the same.
I could beat this scn, even with the hardest difficulty (13 str enemy units) and instead a tank, an another arty - I modified the campaign to make it historical accurate - and even with that, I could make the victory. While capturing additional 5 settlements outside the Mannerheim line. I do not write this, to show how good am I ( I'm just patient - I replayed the battle so many times, until I found the right solution and succeded...), but to give faith, that you can do it too. ;)

The pictures shows the original campaign setup:

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ikbenrichard wrote:Hi,

It seems i cannot beat the mission Karelian Isthmus. Playing on normal difficulty.
I am kinda new to this game as in played a week or 3 now. So is there someone that can give me some decent tips?
Seems playing in defence or offense is both leading to defeat. Tried artillery, tried heavy inf and tried mass attack.

The 2 missions before this one i played rather well with a minimum casualties.
Image
Image

ikbenrichard
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Re: Karelian Isthmus

Post by ikbenrichard » Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:00 pm

Wow, that is very detailed. Thank you very much !
Guess i should leave the oiltank alone ;)

Played almost the same as you but without my tank (lost it) .

Do you hold the line for some turns and then attack or attack asap?


Edit: The tank really helps, usually i don't use special tanks but now at least i can hold the line.

Uhu
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Re: Karelian Isthmus

Post by Uhu » Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:06 pm

You are welcome!
You lost the tank? :O Poor Finnish tankers... :cry: :) Did you lost it already at Tolvajeri? If yes, the campaign gave for compensation 60 prestige and later you will have also compensated, if you have fewer tanks, than set.

It is up to the situation - the whole scn needs a flexible approach. Sometimes I even pull back my unit from a VP to avoid high losses. At the start, since I discovered (only yesterday, at my last play :o ), that the other heavy inf is best placed in the east, I attack to outside with it - I have less fear to butchered by the tank. In the middle I first just soften the enemy with arty (anyway, only the lonely aux inf is there, the ski trooper already went on their business :) ), and only when chance arrises, go into attack. On the western part it is also a flexible battle, only the heavy inf, sitting on the vp do not move mostly (but attack with mortar).
ikbenrichard wrote:Wow, that is very detailed. Thank you very much !
Guess i should leave the oiltank alone ;)

Played almost the same as you but without my tank (lost it) .

Do you hold the line for some turns and then attack or attack asap?


Edit: The tank really helps, usually i don't use special tanks but now at least i can hold the line.
Image
Image

Uhu
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Re: Karelian Isthmus

Post by Uhu » Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:20 pm

ikbenrichard wrote:Edit: The tank really helps, usually i don't use special tanks but now at least i can hold the line.
It is really interesting to play without armor. In Panzer Corps, it would create a boring gameplay, but here no way! Historically, the Finns had really few armor in winter war - the only battle where a company of Vickers took part is about the 05 Summa scenario (that is portrayed historically right in the game) - and they lost the engagement. But the Finns captured a lot of T-26's and two t-28's, only these were first used in 1941. Anyway, I feel it to gamey to capture something armor and use it from that second (arty and AT is a different thing). And without armor, I think it gives a good taste to the player, how the Finns felt, without armor. Anyway, with experience, the heavy inf is quite effective against the already softened Soviet light tanks not just in attack, but also in defense.
I replaced the captured tank with a 122mm howitzer (although cut back the range to 4 for gameplay reasons), so the player do not go with empty hand away from Tolvajeri.

...but still I wait for the moment, when I get my first armored unit with the Vickers! :) And also later, the T-26's and T-28's, all in 1941.
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Dragoon.
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Re: Karelian Isthmus

Post by Dragoon. » Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:05 am

I find the website http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/MAIN.html dedicated to the Finnish Army from 1918 to 1945 is a great source for information of use about captured tanks in Finnish Army.

T-26
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/TANKS3.htm
BT-7, BT-5 and T-50
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/TANKS5.htm
OT-130 & OT-133 Flame Tanks
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/TANKS4.htm
T-28 & t-34
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/TANKS6.htm
KV-1 & German PzKw IV
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/TANKS7.htm

ikbenrichard
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Re: Karelian Isthmus

Post by ikbenrichard » Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:56 am

Uhu wrote:You are welcome!
You lost the tank? :O Poor Finnish tankers... :cry: :) Did you lost it already at Tolvajeri? If yes, the campaign gave for compensation 60 prestige and later you will have also compensated, if you have fewer tanks, than set.

It is up to the situation - the whole scn needs a flexible approach. Sometimes I even pull back my unit from a VP to avoid high losses. At the start, since I discovered (only yesterday, at my last play :o ), that the other heavy inf is best placed in the east, I attack to outside with it - I have less fear to butchered by the tank. In the middle I first just soften the enemy with arty (anyway, only the lonely aux inf is there, the ski trooper already went on their business :) ), and only when chance arrises, go into attack. On the western part it is also a flexible battle, only the heavy inf, sitting on the vp do not move mostly (but attack with mortar).
Didn't know you get a compensation. Anyways retried the mission before this one and got a better start this time ;)

Uhu
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Re: Karelian Isthmus

Post by Uhu » Mon Aug 22, 2016 4:50 pm

I personally did not get a compensation, as I have captured (instead of tanks the arty) and kept my booty. :)
Good work! I think, it always make a good feeling, if we can achive a major victory after a hard fight.
ikbenrichard wrote: Didn't know you get a compensation. Anyways retried the mission before this one and got a better start this time ;)
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SimTheSor
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Re: Karelian Isthmus

Post by SimTheSor » Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:30 pm

Hey guys. Good tips here!
It took me a while to figure out how important the Ski Troops are.

I have a question to you: I can manage the scenarios on Level 4 (of 5). BUT only when I know what will happen. When I know the map and so on.
I wanted to ask if it is the same with you guys? I feel discouraged and a bit shameful.

Only "Morning Sun" I could do on 4 on the run.

Uhu
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Re: Karelian Isthmus

Post by Uhu » Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:41 pm

I never like to play on the run. It would mean, that the scn was to easy, it gave no real challenge. Like, if you get something easy, you don't feel it valuable... I always like to play again to odds. Quality over quantity an so on. I played the first 3 scns a really lot of times, until I was satisfied (diff 5).
So, you don't need to shame. :)
Of course, if somebody wants to play casual (which I doubt with these type of complex strategy games), he can choose the easiest difficulty and just hit the buttons.

Anyway, after these 3 battles, Suomussalmi was yet hard enough, but Raate road find I already to easy with the too passive AI. I tried it to make it a little harder, by chaging the Soviet 3 range arty to range 4 type and changing 1 T-26 to T-28. And anyway, this time I will fight without armor and without range 5 arty, so let's see, how it will work now. :)
I didn't play later scns yet.

Yes, ski troops are the key. And arty. :)
SimTheSor wrote:Hey guys. Good tips here!
It took me a while to figure out how important the Ski Troops are.

I have a question to you: I can manage the scenarios on Level 4 (of 5). BUT only when I know what will happen. When I know the map and so on.
I wanted to ask if it is the same with you guys? I feel discouraged and a bit shameful.

Only "Morning Sun" I could do on 4 on the run.
Image
Image

ikbenrichard
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Re: Karelian Isthmus

Post by ikbenrichard » Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:58 am

SimTheSor wrote:Hey guys. Good tips here!
It took me a while to figure out how important the Ski Troops are.

I have a question to you: I can manage the scenarios on Level 4 (of 5). BUT only when I know what will happen. When I know the map and so on.
I wanted to ask if it is the same with you guys? I feel discouraged and a bit shameful.

Only "Morning Sun" I could do on 4 on the run.
No shame ;)
I retry often more then 3 times. (on normal dif)

SimTheSor
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Re: Karelian Isthmus

Post by SimTheSor » Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:14 am

Thanks !
I will do the same. It's great to test new strategies.

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