Moscow Tips?

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bigorange
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Moscow Tips?

Post by bigorange » Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:06 pm

I appreciate it any tips you have for beating the Moscow scenario. Thanks.

hrafnkolbrandr
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Re: Moscow Tips?

Post by hrafnkolbrandr » Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:10 pm

Don't finish off weakened (strength 2 to 3) soviet units. Leave them to take up space and choke up the soviet lines of reinforcements.

Andy2012
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Re: Moscow Tips?

Post by Andy2012 » Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:32 am

bigorange wrote:I appreciate it any tips you have for beating the Moscow scenario. Thanks.
Plan for a limited attack only, then a fighting retreat.

Deploy your elite infantry, panzers, mobile arty and Stukas with fighter support to the north. Push for the two northern VP cities, should be there in 12-15 turns easily. Really mass your forces here. Keep your heavy arty around your starting position in the northwest, support the assault but dont overextend.
In the south, deploy just some Mountaineers without transport and maybe some light AT behind in chokepoints near the silver flag cities there. Leave them there to dig in.
When you get the message that the Soviets got a ton of reinforcements, hold the two VPs you have in the north. Hold, conserve, dont overextend. When you get the message to withdraw to your starting positions, do a fighting retreat. Cover it with heavy arty from your starting position.
In the south, you get some Aux light AT, move them in position behind your units you let wait there. They will hold the Russians here, let your Stukas, fighters and air recon help them.
You should be able to retreat and let the Soviets slowly bleed out under arty fire and Stukas. Save often.

bigorange
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Re: Moscow Tips?

Post by bigorange » Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:57 pm

Thanks so much. So am I right to assume that Moscow cannot be taken in this scenario?

Andy2012
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Re: Moscow Tips?

Post by Andy2012 » Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:59 pm

bigorange wrote:Thanks so much. So am I right to assume that Moscow cannot be taken in this scenario?
Yep, impossible. Just like the historical Operation Typhoon, the Wehrmacht had its high watermark on the outskirts of Moscow.

bigorange
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Re: Moscow Tips?

Post by bigorange » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:18 pm

Danke! But that sure is ending a campaign with a whimper instead of a bang.

Andy2012
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Re: Moscow Tips?

Post by Andy2012 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:42 am

bigorange wrote:Danke! But that sure is ending a campaign with a whimper instead of a bang.
Well, it is a quite difficult mission and an epic, dramatic battle. (Back then and here) Good luck.
Next Wehrmacht DLC will probably end in Stalingrad. THAT will be a shitshow and a whimper. :shock:

Horst
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Re: Moscow Tips?

Post by Horst » Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:21 pm

Just follow exactly the mission objectives which change over time. When you get a warning about attacks in the south, there is still enough time to send some units down there to intercept attackers. Just play very defensively after taking the first objectives in the North and you'll be fine.

Pruitt
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Re: Moscow Tips?

Post by Pruitt » Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:46 pm

I have started this scenario many times and appreciate the tips. My pet peeve is I only have six command points for my SS units. I have three units I have used, Infantry Div (no transport), Engineer, and Infantry Division using Halftracks since I have started the campaign. The last few times I have upgraded to Panzer Division. My big problem is I have over 300 replacement points and can't activate any of the old units! How can I get more SS units?

Pruitt

Andy2012
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Re: Moscow Tips?

Post by Andy2012 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:33 am

Pruitt wrote:I have started this scenario many times and appreciate the tips. My pet peeve is I only have six command points for my SS units. I have three units I have used, Infantry Div (no transport), Engineer, and Infantry Division using Halftracks since I have started the campaign. The last few times I have upgraded to Panzer Division. My big problem is I have over 300 replacement points and can't activate any of the old units! How can I get more SS units?

Pruitt
Old Problem - you cant. 6 Waffen SS command points is all you ever get. Means two light inf no transport to hold down flanks. Use elite reinforcements for them to make them more powerful.

Horst
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Re: Moscow Tips?

Post by Horst » Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:31 am

Getting more Waffen-SS command points seems only be possible by future, not-yet available upgrades to its specialization. I tend to pick a tank for these 6 points which is clearly more powerful than whatever infantry or other unit. The amount of WSS-requisition points you gain over time is enough to keep this tank elite-repaired most of the time.

bru888
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Re: Moscow Tips?

Post by bru888 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:40 pm

bigorange wrote:Thanks so much. So am I right to assume that Moscow cannot be taken in this scenario?
Andy2012 wrote:Yep, impossible. Just like the historical Operation Typhoon, the Wehrmacht had its high watermark on the outskirts of Moscow.
bigorange wrote:Danke! But that sure is ending a campaign with a whimper instead of a bang.
I'll say! Here comes a bit of a good-natured rant and a possible spoiler, so take heed and read no further if you don't want advance knowledge.

You've got to be kidding me. This whole thing is about taking two northern cities and, when you do, the primary objective of capturing Moscow disappears and you win only if you hold onto those cities until the end of the scenario?

This is bait and switch:

"As the second Panzer army is expected to arrive from the south we are tasked to engulf the city from the north." There is no second army.

Capture 2 primary VPs in 15 turns means "Securing the intended objectives before the Soviets have the time to mount any counter-attacks will make this task significantly easier." Really? I did that and it doesn't seem to have helped.

As a matter of fact, doing so seems to trigger the counter-attack scenario. Frankly, I wonder whether if you avoided those two cities, you actually have a chance if you slowly grind your way up from the south instead of blindly following instructions.

Well, I don't want to play this all over again; maybe I will someday, using that alternate strategy. For now, though, I will use a game save that I made when I held those cities and counter-strikes were announced.

At this point, I will give myself two cheats: Unlimited time and resources as needed. No additional command points; I will go with the army that I have.

I never use the resources cheat (I do occasionally use overtime) but in this case I AM GOING TO TAKE MOSCOW. I will post again.
- Bru

bru888
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Re: Moscow Tips?

Post by bru888 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:11 am

Say, isn't that a German flag still waving over Klin?
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Hmmm. Looks like a German flag over Istra, too.
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You will note, however, that I still lost despite my slaying enemies right and left. Six sets of warbonds (500 resources each) were doing the trick, all right!

So, what the heck? :x

Oh well, you know what they say. Cheaters never win. :lol:

Except when they use nukes, that is. :wink:
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- Bru

bru888
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Re: Moscow Tips?

Post by bru888 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:34 am

bru888 wrote:So, what the heck? :x
Oh, I know what happened. The revised Primary Objective is "Do not lose any Secondary VPs." I misread that. I thought it meant hold onto Klin and Istra. Nope. At that stage, the goal becomes defending Volokolamsk, Mozhaysk, and Medyn.

I saw the Soviets were attacking down south but I thought that it was just an attempt to cut off my supply. I was taking towns in the north, so I was not concerned and I thought I would deal with the southern situation later.

This is why I lost (again):
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Oy. My bad. :cry:

Quite a humbling experience. But fun, nevertheless! If it were not 10:30 PM on a night before work, I might be tempted to have another go at it but it's just as well. I'll leave it there for now.

Moscow, you and I will meet again someday. :evil:
- Bru

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Re: Moscow Tips?

Post by GiveWarAchance » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:09 am

You used some cheat to nuke Moscow?? Did it show a huge mushroom cloud?

bru888
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Re: Moscow Tips?

Post by bru888 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:01 pm

GiveWarAchance wrote:You used some cheat to nuke Moscow?? Did it show a huge mushroom cloud?
Heh, I wish, after all that trial and tribulation! No, when you press Shift + C and type #igotnukes all it does is bring you to a victorious end of scenario message.

This is how bad I have an OOB obsession: Overnight and this morning, I kept thinking of how I would defeat Moscow in two ways:

[*]Legitimately, according to script, now that I understand the scenario objectives! ("Dummkopf! Did you even read the memorandum? You are under arrest!")

[*]And, while not cheating, not going for the bait, either. That is, I wonder if I could advance from the south and grind down the Soviet army piecemeal while avoiding Klin and Istra and thereby not triggering the counterattacks. Well, maybe I would use the #overtime cheat, because this would be a long, slow grind. I wonder if that would work and I could actually win the scenario by taking Moscow?
- Bru

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Re: Moscow Tips?

Post by GiveWarAchance » Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:37 pm

Most probably it would be better to have more time and try to take the city. Maybe the severe time limit is there to simulate the winter problem and lack of supplies.

bru888
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Re: Moscow Tips?

Post by bru888 » Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:32 am

Greetings from Moscow!
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I played the standalone scenario, set for middle difficulty and Quick Unit Experience. It took me three evenings and over 170 turns to finally take the city. Overtime was the only cheat that I used.

I avoided taking the bait of those two cities, Klin and Istra. Instead, I concentrated my forces in the south and began the long, slow process of grinding up Soviet units. By my count, which I made after loading the scenario in the editor and changing sides to get a Soviet unit list, there are about 200 Soviet infantry, cavalry, tank, car, AT-gun, AA-gun, artillery, bunker, foxhole, and mine units initially placed on the map:
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Who knows how many more are spawned during the scenario? And the Soviets seem to have a generous supply of resources per turn.

Not initially going near Klin or Istra avoids touching off the counterattacks. The Soviets do attack, but not the massive assault in the scenario when objectives change to "retreat and hold on."

I battled my way east and gradually to the north until I saw the Soviets were taking too many of my supply points in the west. At that point, I was forced to turn around and head there in order to blunt their advance and turn them back. Then I swung north and continued to whittle them down until I found myself in a position to assault Moscow from three sides. What a battle that was.

Anyway, I did it. What does it prove? Nothing. I just wanted to see if I could do it with the resources that I had and sufficient time. Until I was about three-quarters through, I kept expecting that massive counterattack but it never happened. By the time I did take Klin and Istra, the Soviet response was feeble. I knew then that I was going to "win."

Here's a link to the reply file in case you want to take a look: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B72noH ... sp=sharing
- Bru

GiveWarAchance
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Re: Moscow Tips?

Post by GiveWarAchance » Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:27 pm

bru you sure have a preponderance of tanks instead of infantry which is odd for an urban scrap. Do you prefer being tank heavy?
Did you play the Battle of Berlin scenarios in Panzer Corp east 45 campaign?
That scenario should get a large boost of extra turns so you don't need that cheat. Most probably people enjoy the killing but not the time crunch in this.

bru888
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Re: Moscow Tips?

Post by bru888 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:38 am

GiveWarAchance wrote:bru you sure have a preponderance of tanks instead of infantry which is odd for an urban scrap. Do you prefer being tank heavy?
True; they do say that tanks are not good in city and forest combat. There's one big city, of course, and plenty of forest in this scenario! Here's what happened.

I started out with this array of purchased core forces:
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Note that I have six tanks. I also spent resources on two reconnaissance cars and four 88 guns that can function as either anti-air or anti-tank depending on whether the gun barrel is raised or not. My foot soldiers are all heavy infantry.

Based on my bad experience playing this scenario in the Blitzkrieg campaign, I did not know whether I would trigger that massive counterattack that I keep talking about. I was playing very defensively.

However, I noticed two things from the start: Heavy infantry moves slow, especially in rough terrain. Really slow. And tanks cannot enter dense forests, which I forgot. Neither can the heavy infantry! So what Soviet infantry units would do at times was to hide in dense forests where I could not get at them with my ground forces.

That's where the 88's came in. I was expecting air attacks and they handled those to some extent. I was also fearing enemy tanks but I never really got much of a chance to use the 88's against tanks. What I did use them for was to root out the Soviets from dense forests!

But over time, the 88's got weaker and the reconnaissance cars proved to be worthless (every town had Soviets in them, at least at first) so I sacrificed them. I lost one heavy infantry unit in combat as well. In a frenzy, I just replaced these units as they died with panzers.

Did I handicap myself in doing so? Perhaps. But what saved my bacon and won the scenario for me were the three 17cm Kanone 18 artillery pieces that you see in my array. I want to kiss each and every one of those guns! [A squad of Stukas, and a couple of Fw 190's in support, also deserve honorable mention.]
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GiveWarAchance wrote:Did you play the Battle of Berlin scenarios in Panzer Corp east 45 campaign?
It's funny that you ask this. I own Panzer Corps, the Gold Edition. I have tried to get into it three times but I have never gotten past the tutorial campaigns. See, most of you guys played PzC before OOB and therefore have fond memories of PzC. I never did, and I just cannot get past its wooden animation and its clumsy interface after having played OOB first. Plus I understand PzC does not deal with lines of supply which I think is a serious deficiency. OOB does.
GiveWarAchance wrote:That scenario should get a large boost of extra turns so you don't need that cheat. Most probably people enjoy the killing but not the time crunch in this.
I assume you are back to talking about OOB's Moscow scenario. We know it was designed in a certain way which is not the way that I chose to play it. As it was intended to be played, the scenario must have a reasonably short time limit in order for one to survive a big counterattack, else lose. The designers did not intend for a small force like mine to take on 200 enemy units and prevail. I did so by not following the script and by avoiding triggering counterattacks until I had isolated and eliminated much of the enemy forces. The tradeoff, of course, is that it took a long time (over 170 moves). Only a deranged fanatic like me would enjoy that!

I sure did. :)
- Bru

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