Heavy Steel preview

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Horst
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Re: Heavy Steel preview

Post by Horst » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:36 pm

Guys, blowing-up battleships is all about stealth during foggy weather at night to board the ship and sneak past thousand sailors, place some explosives at critical points like the ammunition storage, and paddle quickly away again to watch the fireworks at safe distance. Piece of cake! :wink:

bru888
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Re: Heavy Steel preview

Post by bru888 » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:06 pm

Horst wrote:Guys, blowing-up battleships is all about stealth during foggy weather at night to board the ship and sneak past thousand sailors, place some explosives at critical points like the ammunition storage, and paddle quickly away again to watch the fireworks at safe distance. Piece of cake! :wink:
Yes, I'm sure that would be the idea. I was just being facetious. :wink:
- Bru

kverdon
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Re: Heavy Steel preview

Post by kverdon » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:04 am

Not sure about the idea of using Strat Bombers in the supply role. Historically it was pretty much a failed premise. Stalingrad = EPIC FAIl, Bastonge - Mostly a fail. The only successful air supply mission I can think of that was done by Strat Bombers was "Operation Chowhound" to supply the cut off Dutch civilians and that was pretty much uncontested. I am sure the limited resources of the devs could be put to better use.

Andy2012
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Re: Heavy Steel preview

Post by Andy2012 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:47 am

kverdon wrote:Not sure about the idea of using Strat Bombers in the supply role. Historically it was pretty much a failed premise. Stalingrad = EPIC FAIl, Bastonge - Mostly a fail. The only successful air supply mission I can think of that was done by Strat Bombers was "Operation Chowhound" to supply the cut off Dutch civilians and that was pretty much uncontested. I am sure the limited resources of the devs could be put to better use.
Well, the Wehrmacht did successfully resupply the Demyansk Pocket (but lost a lot of JU 52s in the process). Also, the Chindits were supplied by air, mostly successfully. But they were also light infantry, not a whole tank army. I dont care much about historical accuracy, as long as the game mechanic works. I doubt this works for multiplayer or that someone might actually use this, but it can have a lot of potential in specially designed missions. I think done right, this can add a lot of drama into mission design. I think OoB has been a bit too tepid here; some missions like Bataan defense, Raate Road and Moscow had sudden reversals and allowed a glimpse of what might be possible. Lets hope the devs are done with difficult game mechanic additions and focus on this instead. I think Kriegsmarine was an example of hasty and tepid missions with bad balancing, Blitzkrieg was pretty good.

kverdon
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Re: Heavy Steel preview

Post by kverdon » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:52 pm

Thanks Andy, what I am complaining about in OOB is not really a lack of Historical Accuracy but Historical Context. Units and scenarios do not necessarily have to follow history but should perform similarly in their historical context. Your example is a case in point. Supply of the Demyansk Pocket was mostly performed by JU 52 TRANSPORT aircraft, not strat bombers dropping supplies instead of bombs. Where I think OOB gets itself into trouble is that there are arbitrary game changes incorporated to alleviate game mechanic weaknesses. In this case I have a feeling that since the Air to Air Escort mechanic does not work well, the devs decided to just work around that by giving Strat bombers the ability to carry supply as they have enough intrinsic air defense to have a chance a surviving. I'd rather see a better escort routine worked out (Or ATA ZOC) and then have to try to defend and keep clear an airfield where I could fly in transport planes to. A more interesting mechanic to have would be a supply base (like supply ships) that would tick down a value each turn and thus cause your units to loose supply. If you then had a supply unit that turned into a transport (like paras) that you could fly into an airfield and then merge with the supply base to refill it and up it's supply count, that would be a better representation of the real thing.

adherbal
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Re: Heavy Steel preview

Post by adherbal » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:56 pm

Canoes will be shallow water only, the screenshot was from a quick test in the scenario editor.

No plans for allowing them to sink battleships yet :)
Image

bru888
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Re: Heavy Steel preview

Post by bru888 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:03 pm

adherbal wrote:Canoes will be shallow water only, the screenshot was from a quick test in the scenario editor.

No plans for allowing them to sink battleships yet :)
Thanks for taking our whimsy good-naturedly! :wink:
- Bru

Andy2012
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Re: Heavy Steel preview

Post by Andy2012 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:59 pm

kverdon wrote:Thanks Andy, what I am complaining about in OOB is not really a lack of Historical Accuracy but Historical Context. Units and scenarios do not necessarily have to follow history but should perform similarly in their historical context. Your example is a case in point. Supply of the Demyansk Pocket was mostly performed by JU 52 TRANSPORT aircraft, not strat bombers dropping supplies instead of bombs. Where I think OOB gets itself into trouble is that there are arbitrary game changes incorporated to alleviate game mechanic weaknesses. In this case I have a feeling that since the Air to Air Escort mechanic does not work well, the devs decided to just work around that by giving Strat bombers the ability to carry supply as they have enough intrinsic air defense to have a chance a surviving. I'd rather see a better escort routine worked out (Or ATA ZOC) and then have to try to defend and keep clear an airfield where I could fly in transport planes to. A more interesting mechanic to have would be a supply base (like supply ships) that would tick down a value each turn and thus cause your units to loose supply. If you then had a supply unit that turned into a transport (like paras) that you could fly into an airfield and then merge with the supply base to refill it and up it's supply count, that would be a better representation of the real thing.
I think adherbal wrote here couple of pages back that they cant do / wont do declining supply. Would be logical, but it wont happen.

@adherbal: Could be an interesting mini mission to sink cruisers with my combat diver mines. I think Panzercorps Allied Corps had the Taranto Raid as a wacky, fun reward for a decisive victory. Could be worth it.

adherbal
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Re: Heavy Steel preview

Post by adherbal » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:14 pm

Some of Hobart's Funnies

Image
Image

ubcbeer
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Re: Heavy Steel preview

Post by ubcbeer » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:15 am

adherbal wrote:Some of Hobart's Funnies
Awesome! Great work, Adherbal!

Churchill Crocodile, Sherman Crab, and Churchill AVRE? :D

GiveWarAchance
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Re: Heavy Steel preview

Post by GiveWarAchance » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:54 am

That's a nice picture of the Burma campaign. It will be fun fighting the Japanese as the British.
Last edited by GiveWarAchance on Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Andy2012
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Re: Heavy Steel preview

Post by Andy2012 » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:22 pm

wehrmacht wrote:
adherbal wrote:Some of Hobart's Funnies
Awesome! Great work, Adherbal!

Churchill Crocodile, Sherman Crab, and Churchill AVRE? :D
Didnt the Crocodile have that armoured fuel tank dragging behind it?
Still looks great, though. But Hobarts funnies are for later campaigns, right? Cant see them in Burma...

bru888
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Re: Heavy Steel preview

Post by bru888 » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:00 pm

Please pardon me while I talk to myself. Bruce, you noob, get with the program! Hobart's Funnies is not the name of some comic strip. :x
- Bru

ubcbeer
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Re: Heavy Steel preview

Post by ubcbeer » Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:05 am

Andy2012 wrote:
wehrmacht wrote:
adherbal wrote:Some of Hobart's Funnies
Awesome! Great work, Adherbal!

Churchill Crocodile, Sherman Crab, and Churchill AVRE? :D
Didnt the Crocodile have that armoured fuel tank dragging behind it?
Still looks great, though. But Hobarts funnies are for later campaigns, right? Cant see them in Burma...
Yes, I know, but It's great that adding new units! I :D
and Crocodile have that armoured fuel tank dragging behind it, but many games omitted it (e.g. Panzer Corps, Company of Heroes, etc), I guess OoB omitted too! :wink:

adherbal
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Re: Heavy Steel preview

Post by adherbal » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:43 am

Hobarts Funnies will be specialization. Up to the.player whether he wants them in Burma or not.

As for the crocodiles fuel trailer, it causes a number of issues. First of all it makes the unit very long, probably too long to fit on a hex. Secondly it would look weird when the tank turns or rotates because making it "bend" realisticaly would require a lot of extra code. Not really worth the trouble :)
Image

Andy2012
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Re: Heavy Steel preview

Post by Andy2012 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:26 pm

adherbal wrote:Hobarts Funnies will be specialization. Up to the.player whether he wants them in Burma or not.

As for the crocodiles fuel trailer, it causes a number of issues. First of all it makes the unit very long, probably too long to fit on a hex. Secondly it would look weird when the tank turns or rotates because making it "bend" realisticaly would require a lot of extra code. Not really worth the trouble :)
Well, in that case, let's ditch that trailer. (Even though you guys have shell casings flying out of arty, so attention to extreme detail is kind of your thing)

Hobart's funnies seems a bit a misplaced specialisation in the Burma campaign. I mean, something like "jungle training" or "mule transport" for heavyinf would fit here, but those tanks were exclusively used in Europe, I think.

GiveWarAchance
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Re: Heavy Steel preview

Post by GiveWarAchance » Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:25 pm

Andy has many good ideas. Maybe the funnies will be included for a little hypothetical fun in Burma. Those flame crocs would sure be useful in the jungle cause the Japanese were very good at adapting to the harsh jungle conditions but not able to adapt to 2000 degrees celsius napalm.

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Re: Heavy Steel preview

Post by Andy2012 » Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:44 am

GiveWarAchance wrote:Andy has many good ideas. Maybe the funnies will be included for a little hypothetical fun in Burma. Those flame crocs would sure be useful in the jungle cause the Japanese were very good at adapting to the harsh jungle conditions but not able to adapt to 2000 degrees celsius napalm.
I have the best ideas, yuge, yuge ideas. Everybody else's ideas are bad, failing, bleeding everywhere. Sad! :mrgreen:

Well, that flametank would be useful if you could actually get it anywhere. In the jungle - nearly impossible. Maybe that flailing mine tank could clear a path, but that is again not practical in Burma, too hilly. I think there is a place for Hobart's Funnies, but not here. Jungle warfare is about light infantry, some mortars and supply problems everywhere. Until the advent of helicopter troops and resupply, this is just two armies slogging it out, mostly with the jungle.
This doesnt mean Burma Road will be boring. You can still have commandos blow up bridges and putting the enemy in the red supply by making the bridges pivotal supply hubs. But gameplay will be slower than, say, Blitzkrieg. At least that is my guess.

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Re: Heavy Steel preview

Post by GiveWarAchance » Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:19 am

Andy2012 wrote: Well, that flametank would be useful if you could actually get it anywhere. In the jungle - nearly impossible. Maybe that flailing mine tank could clear a path, but that is again not practical in Burma, too hilly. I think there is a place for Hobart's Funnies, but not here. Jungle warfare is about light infantry, some mortars and supply problems everywhere. Until the advent of helicopter troops and resupply, this is just two armies slogging it out, mostly with the jungle.
This doesnt mean Burma Road will be boring. You can still have commandos blow up bridges and putting the enemy in the red supply by making the bridges pivotal supply hubs. But gameplay will be slower than, say, Blitzkrieg. At least that is my guess.
I read about the Burma campaign awhile ago, but had to do research to find out more details. The British/Indian army didn't start with tanks in the early battles of trying to hold off the Japanese juggernaut, but by the huge Meiktila battle they had 100 or so Lees and Stuarts versus about the same in Japanese tanks and there were small tank vs tank battles for extra fun. The early battles were the British choosing which towns to defend in layers to slow down the Japanese, the tide turned and Japanese retreated, and then siege of Meiktila battle was very big. Japanese AT guns 75mm and 37mm brewed up a good # of British tanks but the deadly Gurkha troops were able to kill off the suicidal Japanese infantry attacks against the tanks. The Japanese did a lot of bonzai suicidal type infantry attacks during the battle losing large numbers of troops. So basically lots of good fights involving troops & tanks in Burma which is great for the campaign we get to play. The general campaign is like a Van Damme fight with the good guys (the British) on the back foot and then later reversing the tide and pushing back the Japanese in a vigorous chase. Not slow at all and very mobile and lots of fun fighting.

Horst
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Re: Heavy Steel preview

Post by Horst » Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:24 am

It’s unavoidable with the spec-system that things can appear at inappropriate times or locations. All specs are still optional to pick it or not and can also be specifically disabled for certain campaigns. It's not possible though to disable certain units for theaters similar like in PC with Africa.

Burma is a new theater for me. As far as I did a quick check, following British tanks have been used there:
- Sherman (no Firefly)
- Grant
- Stuart (M3)
- Valentine (+Bridgelayer)
- Priest
It looks like Matilda (rather AUS), Churchill, Cromwell, or Comet tanks weren’t used there.

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