Panzerkrieg-Onto the Plains of Russia! (Review and Discuss)

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CoolDTA
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Re: Panzerkrieg-Onto the Plains of Russia! (Review and Discu

Post by CoolDTA » Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:46 pm

Andy2012 wrote:But I began this walkthrough when the game was still unpatched and Waffen SS II still only gave a modest bump in credits per turn. (6 RP is still too little for sustaining 18 CP along with your Wehrmacht, especially if it just isnt support troops...)
Maybe the problem is in that the specialisation works differently from Blitzkrieg. In BK you got RPs for the Waffen SS between battles - too many really. In PK you don't get that many because you get nothing. I find that a bit disappointing. Maybe 25% of the points given to the player in BK could be given in PK to make the specialisation more useful to many players. Or perhaps there could be a new specialisation, which gives some between scenarios RPs for Waffen SS if chosen.
Andy2012 wrote:Right now, I am at Kursk and I am once again holding my Stukas back at turn 8 because the Red Airforce is still present.
Really? :shock: The Soviet Air Force is really large in Kursk, but do you mean you have not used the Stukas at all?

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Re: Panzerkrieg-Onto the Plains of Russia! (Review and Discu

Post by Andy2012 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:01 pm

@CoolDTA: Yes, this is probably the toughest campaign in terms of resources I have played so far.
I mean, I dont mind being outnumbered and having to think carefully what to do. It is like being slowly starved to death in the last missions. And not being able to afford any of the really cool equipment in the showroom.
And yes, I kept my Stukas mostly grounded. My 4 elite FW190Fs are tearing through the Red Airforce like there is no tomorrow but they keep coming. And with 28 credits per turn to support around 100 land CP and about 24 air CP (7 undeployed...), replacements for expensive units apart from infantry are not gonna happen. Feels like the early beta missions.
I think I am either going restart Kursk and cheat heavily to enjoy this or wait for a patch and then maybe restart the whole campaign. I feel like this is not really winnable in a satisfactory way even though I made good progress until I reached Prokhorovka at turn 14... no chance against that many tanks and no resources... (and yes, I do play well and very carefully, no losses, elite reinforcements rarely and so on....).

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Re: Panzerkrieg-Onto the Plains of Russia! (Review and Discu

Post by CoolDTA » Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:21 pm

I know you play carefully, but yes, this is a hard dlc. Wouldn't recommend it for the first campaign for sure! In Kursk the Soviet Air Force has sthg like 9 - 10 fighters and about half a dozen bombers I think. A huge force and this is definitely not the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot.

If you restart Kursk you will do better I'm sure. Against the armor near Prokhorovka a line of tanks with StuGs works well when supported by Stukas and heavy artillery. But you don't have too many of those, so it is probably very difficult (would be for me).

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Re: Panzerkrieg-Onto the Plains of Russia! (Review and Discu

Post by Andy2012 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:34 pm

CoolDTA wrote:I know you play carefully, but yes, this is a hard dlc. Wouldn't recommend it for the first campaign for sure! In Kursk the Soviet Air Force has sthg like 9 - 10 fighters and about half a dozen bombers I think. A huge force and this is definitely not the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot.

If you restart Kursk you will do better I'm sure. Against the armor near Prokhorovka a line of tanks with StuGs works well when supported by Stukas and heavy artillery. But you don't have too many of those, so it is probably very difficult (would be for me).
I wouldnt say hard - I can clearly see that with more credits, this would be doable.

I think you are right about a restart - problem now is that I have a split force fighting two and a half battles at once. Concentrating them at Prokhorovka will yield a different result. But I guess even then I will have to use #warbonds to enjoy some of the cool equipment like Tigers, Me 410s Hornisse and AT Stukas...
Maybe this weekend I will swim in artifical cash... 8)

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Re: Panzerkrieg-Onto the Plains of Russia! (Review and Discu

Post by Erik2 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:42 pm

Wonder if bitcoins are valid valuta on the Eastern front 8)

CoolDTA
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Re: Panzerkrieg-Onto the Plains of Russia! (Review and Discu

Post by CoolDTA » Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:58 pm

Andy2012 wrote: I wouldnt say hard - I can clearly see that with more credits, this would be doable.
Of course, but it is exactly that what makes it hard, don't you agree? :)

Ah them bitcoins - only for those with too much real money.

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Re: Panzerkrieg-Onto the Plains of Russia! (Review and Discu

Post by CoolDTA » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:03 pm

Finally finished Kursk. Rather tough battle at times but just take it slowly. The Soviet Air Force was really big and because of that I decided to deploy four fighters. The Hornisse is not very good against Yaks and Lavochkins, but this is compensated by the great ground attack abilities.

I basically had three battle groups. The strongest was in the east, another one in the west and the weakest in the middle. At first the Stukas were used in the SE to avoid the enemy fighters and this worked well. There are a lot of AT guns protecting the Soviet units but nothing an experienced infantry can't eliminate. Brummbärs have IMO too good stats. They can actually attack infantry protected by a two star 45 mm AT and not take losses at all. I don't complain of course. :mrgreen:

In the west I stopped and retreated a bit after I noticed the Soviets were heading my way in force, but they didn't follow. Then I advanced just enough to lure them to attack. It worked well and the road to Rakitnoye was open. In the middle I only advanced to Cherkasskoye (the town with an airfield) and then dug in.

The infamous Soviet armoured horde was met around Belenkhino (the town with railroad and secondary objective). My line of tanks, infantry in woods and the town and StuGs in the back was probably too intimidating because the Soviets only made couple of attacks with expected results. Then enter Stukas and artillery barrages from K 18s and the armor just melted away. After all the enemies were in bad shape it was just mopping up the remains.

To make sure my core is in good shape for the upcoming 43-45 dlc, I decided to delay the taking of the western objective of Rakitnoye until the last turn (the defenders were eliminated long ago). I was lucky and was able to repair all my core units to full health at the end.

IMO this is the best DLC thus far even with the bugs. Especially after the super easy Burma Road the limited resources you are given make the campaign very good and challenging. Thank you Artistocrats!

My core at the end:

Infantry: 5 x Gebirgsjäger, 2 x Hvy Inf, 2 x Eng, 1 x Fallschirmjäger, 1 x regular Inf, 1 x Bautruppe
Panzers: 3 x PzKpfw IV H, 2 x Brummbär
AT: 3 x StuG III G
AA: 40 mm Bofors, 2 cm Flakvierling 38 (one each)
Arty: 5 x 17cm K 18, 1 x StuG III E, Armoured train
Luftwaffe: 3 x Fw 190 F, 1 x Me 410, 4 x Ju 87 D
SS-units: Wiking, Inf '43, PzKpfw IV F2, Brummbär (one each)

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Re: Panzerkrieg-Onto the Plains of Russia! (Review and Discu

Post by Andy2012 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:05 pm

CoolDTA wrote:
Andy2012 wrote: I wouldnt say hard - I can clearly see that with more credits, this would be doable.
Of course, but it is exactly that what makes it hard, don't you agree? :)
Kind of. I think figuring out complicated game rules and mastering the art of positioning or force composition can make a game hard in the sense of complexity. This is not too complex, you just dont have the resources. At least I felt that way.

BTW, either you started with a later version than I did or I must have made major mistakes - I would have never been able to afford all these expensive units, especially the tanks. I mean, I never had losses with my Waffen SS, but there was never a realistic option to deploy more than a two inf and a Stug Waffen SS faction. Maybe my idea to keep them as a elite force played into that - but I could only afford that after going for Waffen SS II. Generally, I tried to preserve resources and use elite reinforcements sparingly. But I felt that after Maykop (I think that is as far as most people made it in the beta), resource adequacy dropped. Also, some of the upgrades I chose (especially Stug III G) are absurdly expensive.

I might retry Kursk with and without cheating to fully gauge this. I think a slightly different force concentration will help me win without cheating. But that still means I played very well and was still never able to afford fancy stuff.

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Re: Panzerkrieg-Onto the Plains of Russia! (Review and Discu

Post by CoolDTA » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:05 pm

Andy2012 wrote:BTW, either you started with a later version than I did or I must have made major mistakes - I would have never been able to afford all these expensive units, especially the tanks. I mean, I never had losses with my Waffen SS, but there was never a realistic option to deploy more than a two inf and a Stug Waffen SS faction. Maybe my idea to keep them as a elite force played into that - but I could only afford that after going for Waffen SS II. Generally, I tried to preserve resources and use elite reinforcements sparingly. But I felt that after Maykop (I think that is as far as most people made it in the beta), resource adequacy dropped. Also, some of the upgrades I chose (especially Stug III G) are absurdly expensive.
Well, the dlc was released on the 30th of Nov and I started on the next day so it should be the same version, right? :?:

What you might do otherwise next time is especially skip many of the upgrades. For instance my Pz IIIs were basic J models at Rzhev and still the same at Caucasus (one also in Stalingrad). StuG III F should be upgraded to G and skip the F/8. All skipped upgrades save you maybe about 100 RPs a pop. In general the less you upgrade the better. It is especially detrimental to buy units you upgrade many times during a campaign.

Another thing is not to do anything that is not necessary. There is no need to clear the whole map and destroy all enemies. It usually only results in RPs lost and there are not too many of those here. This is especially important for 5-star units which have nothing to gain because their exp is topped already. Naturally this doesn't apply to you because you play cautiously anyway.

I wouldn't say you made any major mistakes. Maybe a defensive light core just doesn't work that well in PK. In all war games when possible I like to use a lot of air power and heavy artillery and it tends to work rather well. Such a pity no carriers can be deployed here. Mmmm... carriers. :lol:
Andy2012 wrote:I might retry Kursk with and without cheating to fully gauge this. I think a slightly different force concentration will help me win without cheating. But that still means I played very well and was still never able to afford fancy stuff.
I agree. But I don't think I had any fancy stuff either. Those would have been the big cats and maybe the long barreled SPATs (tho I still think StuG is better because it is more versatile).

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Re: Panzerkrieg-Onto the Plains of Russia! (Review and Discu

Post by GabeKnight » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:43 pm

@Andy

Something else I noticed to save RPs is NOT to repair the units with only one strengt loss (i.e. 9/10). It's cheaper to repair at least 2 strenght points. It's not that much, but it sums up.
I don't know if it's because of internal rounding, but especially with cheaper units (AT, inf.) you can save RPs.

And somebody else mentioned this before, but upgrading units gives "elite" repair for the cost of regular repair. So you can wear down units that are usually really expensive to repair, like high-star tanks or heavy inf., to 1-2 strenght (and thus protecting other units), if you know you'll upgrade them soon or in the next scenario.

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Re: Panzerkrieg-Onto the Plains of Russia! (Review and Discu

Post by Andy2012 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:07 pm

CoolDTA wrote:
Well, the dlc was released on the 30th of Nov and I started on the next day so it should be the same version, right? :?:

What you might do otherwise next time is especially skip many of the upgrades.

Another thing is not to do anything that is not necessary. There is no need to clear the whole map and destroy all enemies.

I wouldn't say you made any major mistakes. Maybe a defensive light core just doesn't work that well in PK. In all war games when possible I like to use a lot of air power and heavy artillery and it tends to work rather well. Such a pity no carriers can be deployed here. Mmmm... carriers. :lol:
Yeah, no shit, Sherlock. :mrgreen:
Skipping upgrades is a thing, though. On versions, it depends on how fast you progressed. I think a new version in 2018 will play differently.
EDIT: That thing about skipping upgrades and discounted upgrades is something the devs should take a lot at when rebalancing this.
Andy2012 wrote:I might retry Kursk with and without cheating
Did it without cheating now. Went back two turns, redeployed my airforce to Prokhorovkha and boom, won in 24 turns, no big deal. Yep.
But lets be frank - not being able and not needing fancy equipment is an issue. I mean, I fought Kursk without Tigers, Panthers, Elefants. Yep, Kursk. :shock:
Even though being able to play this differently (will post my core later) it is a point to ponder for the devs. Right now, I dont either have the money nor the need to buy all the fancy stuff in the showroom I might crave. This feels off and needs to be discussed and dealt with. :shock:

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Re: Panzerkrieg-Onto the Plains of Russia! (Review and Discu

Post by Andy2012 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:09 pm

GabeKnight wrote:@Andy

So you can wear down units that are usually really expensive to repair, like high-star tanks or heavy inf., to 1-2 strenght (and thus protecting other units), if you know you'll upgrade them soon or in the next scenario.
Thanks - but I think this means you have to know in advance what you need in the next mission and when upgrades are available. But still, thanks. :D

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Re: Panzerkrieg-Onto the Plains of Russia! (Review and Discu

Post by GabeKnight » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:35 am

Andy2012 wrote: Thanks - but I think this means you have to know in advance what you need in the next mission and when upgrades are available. But still, thanks. :D
Of course, it depends heavily on your style of play. Normally my core units are more about the same as "CoolDTA"s. And I haven't played PK yet, so maybe my tips doesn't fit here, but I've always been using this strategy at the beginning of a mission if pressed for money:
If I knew there was an upgradable unit available, for example if I had one high star infantry that even had something like 7-8 health left, I waited with the upgrade using the mentioned tactic. Beeing high-star meant they could take a beating and weaken some enemy units down. And do the upgrade then on the battlefield instead the deployment stage. First you get free "elite" repair and second, you can repair up to 9 strength in just one turn. And this of course applies to all units, not only infantry. It's also very useful when used on planes. Elite repair can be real costly. Reading about your approach, I like the heavens enemy-fighter-free, too. So use this plane to start the attack on an enemy fighter, your other (attacking) planes will take almost no damage thereafter and shoot the enemy down. Do this untill this one fighter is down to 1 strength, and upgrade then (9 strength in just one turn!). Saves a lot of money! And your other planes take almost no damage.
I'm sorry, if this still doesn't help, but I had the feeling to clarify. :)

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Re: Panzerkrieg-Onto the Plains of Russia! (Review and Discu

Post by CoolDTA » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:23 pm

GabeKnight wrote:Saves a lot of money! And your other planes take almost no damage.
That's a good tip, GabeKnight! I have only used it so that towards the end of a scenario I try not to repair units and only do that in the deployment screen of the next scenario. If there is a useful upgrade available I take it and like you said save some RPs. If not, nothing is lost. There's no need to know if upgrades will be available or not.
GabeKnight wrote:Something else I noticed to save RPs is NOT to repair the units with only one strengt loss (i.e. 9/10). It's cheaper to repair at least 2 strenght points. It's not that much, but it sums up.
I don't know if it's because of internal rounding, but especially with cheaper units (AT, inf.) you can save RPs.
I used to think this, too, but I'm not sure anymore. That's because OoB uses fractions/decimals which are invisible to the player. A strength of nine can mean anything between 8.5 and 9.4(99999...). So there probably is no saving at all, but strength points are just close enough making it appear there was. It is that internal rounding you mentioned.

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Re: Panzerkrieg-Onto the Plains of Russia! (Review and Discu

Post by Andy2012 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:47 pm

CoolDTA wrote: My core at the end:

Infantry: 5 x Gebirgsjäger, 2 x Hvy Inf, 2 x Eng, 1 x Fallschirmjäger, 1 x regular Inf, 1 x Bautruppe
Panzers: 3 x PzKpfw IV H, 2 x Brummbär
AT: 3 x StuG III G
AA: 40 mm Bofors, 2 cm Flakvierling 38 (one each)
Arty: 5 x 17cm K 18, 1 x StuG III E, Armoured train
Luftwaffe: 3 x Fw 190 F, 1 x Me 410, 4 x Ju 87 D
SS-units: Wiking, Inf '43, PzKpfw IV F2, Brummbär (one each)
My core:
Infantry: 8x RegInf43, 1xHeavyInf (from Demyansk), 4xEngineer with trucks
Panzers: 2x PzIIIM, 1x PzIVH
AT: 4 Stug III G
Arty: 5 LightInG
Luftwaffe: 4 FW 190F, 2 Stuka Ju 87D
SS: Viking, LightInf, Stug III G

I honestly have no idea how you could afford your core. I had no losses, play very carefully and reinforce aux with regular and after it got too expensive in Maykop and Stalingrad tried to maintain a core exp of 2-3 stars. So I build up exp after taking my core along 1-5 stars and reached elite status fast. But after Stalingrad, I always had Wehrmacht and SS CP undeployed. Maybe my mistake was putting my money into Stugs and paying too much for only incremental upgrades here.
I think some adjustments are due. Or is my experience unique?

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Re: Panzerkrieg-Onto the Plains of Russia! (Review and Discu

Post by CoolDTA » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:40 pm

Andy2012 wrote:My core:
Infantry: 8x RegInf43, 1xHeavyInf (from Demyansk), 4xEngineer with trucks
Panzers: 2x PzIIIM, 1x PzIVH
AT: 4 Stug III G
Arty: 5 LightInG
Luftwaffe: 4 FW 190F, 2 Stuka Ju 87D
SS: Viking, LightInf, Stug III G

I honestly have no idea how you could afford your core. I had no losses, play very carefully and reinforce aux with regular and after it got too expensive in Maykop and Stalingrad tried to maintain a core exp of 2-3 stars. So I build up exp after taking my core along 1-5 stars and reached elite status fast. But after Stalingrad, I always had Wehrmacht and SS CP undeployed. Maybe my mistake was putting my money into Stugs and paying too much for only incremental upgrades here.
I think some adjustments are due. Or is my experience unique?
StuGs are not a mistake. Paying for 5cm PaKs in the beginning is. Upgrading Pz IIIs is. Upgrading StuGs to F/8s is. Too many engineers with trucks is. Too many light arty is. I don't dare to think how many hundreds of RPs all that is combined.

Note that you asked.

A strong core takes fewer losses and this results in even more savings. It is a cumulative effect. An example: a tank attacks and takes no losses. If there are no tanks and infantry must be used it takes one loss. When that happens over and over again in a campaign a lot of wasted RPs accumulate.

This is how I see it.

As for the SS I usually used them in secondary areas to keep their losses low.

At the end I had 36 RPs for Wehrmacht and 82 for the SS left so for me the difficulty level of the DLC hit the sweet spot. I hope others tell how they felt. A sample of two is a bit too small methinks. :wink:

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Re: Panzerkrieg-Onto the Plains of Russia! (Review and Discu

Post by Andy2012 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:09 pm

CoolDTA wrote:
StuGs are not a mistake. Paying for 5cm PaKs in the beginning is. Upgrading Pz IIIs is. Upgrading StuGs to F/8s is. Too many engineers with trucks is. Too many light arty is. I don't dare to think how many hundreds of RPs all that is combined.

Note that you asked.
Yep, I asked. :D
Couple of points, though: You need those 5cm Paks in the beginning to hold the objectives in Rhzev and cover your infantry in Demyansk.
Upgrading PzIII and Stugs is not necessarily a mistake by me; rather a mistake in balancing the cost of these upgrades.
Engineers need trucks and are great for removing mines, fixing bridges and leading assaults on entrenched positions. Cheap, too.
Light arty is really cheap as well and can keep up with your assault force.
So those are not wasted points - but the upgrades for Stugs and Pz IIIs probably were too expensive and should be rebalanced.
CoolDTA wrote: A strong core takes fewer losses and this results in even more savings. It is a cumulative effect. An example: a tank attacks and takes no losses. If there are no tanks and infantry must be used it takes one loss. When that happens over and over again in a campaign a lot of wasted RPs accumulate.

This is how I see it.

Yeah, well - if you want to cover various objectives, you need infantry. If you want to attack an AT covered position, you need infantry. Going all tanks is not going to fly well. Note that my core is not weak, i finished all missions very early - I just felt that in Kursk, extra land CP without additional resources are useless. And I also finished off the tanks at Prokhorovka with my light arty, PzIIIs and 2 Stukas. So this is a viable, powerful core.

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Re: Panzerkrieg-Onto the Plains of Russia! (Review and Discu

Post by GabeKnight » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:41 pm

@CoolDTA, Andy

First, I haven't played PK yet (reading all the posts, I'm still waiting for the next patch), so I can't comment the sceanrios directly, but about the overall gameplay. I've been reading this thread extensively and so far I would agree with almost everything CoolDTA said. His core force, tactics and playstyle sound almost identical to mine. I used engineers before, but instead using one or two hits with the 17cm arty (or Stuka or strat. bomber) you don't need them anymore and your units take no damage attacking. With engineers attacking, they always take a ton of damage. That's usually okay because they're cheap, but taking no damage with arty is cheaper. Same goes for AT support. When infantry units get attacked by a tank, the AT support increases the attack value of the defending unit only, meaning that they do take (a lot usually) damage, just deliver a meaner punch back. Using tanks with AT support is cheaper in the long run, because you have to repair them less.
No offence meant, these are just my opinions.

PS: And am I really the only one who loves the armoured train? Was the new mechanic (cannot enter enemy supply) used on the armoured train as well, or just the transports?

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Re: Panzerkrieg-Onto the Plains of Russia! (Review and Discu

Post by GabeKnight » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:48 pm

CoolDTA wrote:
I used to think this, too, but I'm not sure anymore. That's because OoB uses fractions/decimals which are invisible to the player. A strength of nine can mean anything between 8.5 and 9.4(99999...). So there probably is no saving at all, but strength points are just close enough making it appear there was. It is that internal rounding you mentioned.
Good point. Haven't thought of it that way.
I still remember some scenarios of "WinterWar" DLC... me being happy to have saved 2RP so that I could reinforce some inf. unit.... :D

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Re: Panzerkrieg-Onto the Plains of Russia! (Review and Discu

Post by CoolDTA » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:53 pm

Andy2012 wrote: Couple of points, though: You need those 5cm Paks in the beginning to hold the objectives in Rhzev and cover your infantry in Demyansk.
No, you don't. It is useful to have one in the middle (that's why I bought the 88 and placed it there), but otherwise you have enough aux ATs. It is also better to not deploy anyone in the western objective (Bely). You get more resources earlier and silly AI units proceed further to be easily cut off and destroyed. After that it is easy to take Bely back before the end. In Demyansk there is a lot of woods and the enemy tanks are not so bad because of that.
Andy2012 wrote:Upgrading PzIII and Stugs is not necessarily a mistake by me; rather a mistake in balancing the cost of these upgrades.
As long as the cost is what it is now, it is a mistake imo.
Andy2012 wrote:Engineers need trucks and are great for removing mines, fixing bridges and leading assaults on entrenched positions. Cheap, too.Light arty is really cheap as well and can keep up with your assault force.
Two engineers is enough and only one should have trucks. Every RP counts. Yes, light arty is cheap and maybe two is ok and good but no more. Better to have heavy arty after those two.
Andy2012 wrote:So those are not wasted points - but the upgrades for Stugs and Pz IIIs probably were too expensive and should be rebalanced.
So it is the game and designers that are wrong. Hmm... okay.
Andy2012 wrote:Yeah, well - if you want to cover various objectives, you need infantry. If you want to attack an AT covered position, you need infantry. Going all tanks is not going to fly well.
No, it doesn't - that's why I had 11 (you had two more). ATs can be made harmless by strong artillery and Stukas also.
Andy2012 wrote: Note that my core is not weak, i finished all missions very early - I just felt that in Kursk, extra land CP without additional resources are useless. And I also finished off the tanks at Prokhorovka with my light arty, PzIIIs and 2 Stukas. So this is a viable, powerful core.
Yes, your core is viable, but if it were powerful, then why have you had so much difficulties after Stalingrad? That's what you have told. I think the number of RPs was ok all the way. With the exception of the price of Panther and Tiger of course.

I definitely agree with the extra land CPs without additional resources in Kursk being useless. :)

Btw. I think it is a very good thing that even a campaign this hard can be completed with very different cores, don't you agree?

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