Panther and Tiger too expensive

Order of Battle is a series of operational WW2 games starting with the Pacific War and then on to Europe!

Moderators: Order of Battle Moderators, The Artistocrats

Post Reply
CoolDTA
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Posts: 480
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:52 am

Panther and Tiger too expensive

Post by CoolDTA » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:04 pm

I think these big cats are way too expensive as it is now. You get two Pz-IVHs with the price of one Panther or Tiger and the latter definitely are not worth it. Not even close: with unreliable -trait Panther is useless and Tiger is only marginally better than Pz-IVH. Being so slow decreases its value also.

I think the price difference should be maybe 40 - 50% at most. Even then they are very expensive and I'm not sure I would have bought even one but at least I could have considered it.

One possibility would be to give the player one aux Panther/Tiger for Kursk so that it could be at least tried out. Drop the Pz-IIIN and one Flak and replace them with one of the big cats.

SimTheSor
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:24 pm

Re: Panther and Tiger too expensive

Post by SimTheSor » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:17 pm

Totally agree.
I regret having bought the TIGER. It just stays behind and is used for defending purpose.
2x moving the TIGER you may lose 4 efficiency-points. But ... that's war I guess?!

ivanov
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Posts: 568
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:57 am
Location: Spain

Re: Panther and Tiger too expensive

Post by ivanov » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:31 pm

Well, here some real life prices of German WW2 tanks:

Image
Mickey Mouse

\m/ \m/

Mujado
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:14 pm

Re: Panther and Tiger too expensive

Post by Mujado » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:35 pm

Considering this is a game that doesn't portray warfare realistically in first place, I think gameplay and balance are slightly more important than actual real life costs. I know this is no Starcraft where everything has to be balanced to perfection, but there is no point in a Tiger at all. Might as well make it more of a choice, just for gameplay reason. It's a wasted unit.

ivanov
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Posts: 568
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:57 am
Location: Spain

Re: Panther and Tiger too expensive

Post by ivanov » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:10 pm

I think that Tigers should be available as auxiliary units. If you want to buy them for your core, then you'd be committing the same error as the Germans, that were devoting the resources into the production of this tank. The cost of Panther should decrease over time.
Mickey Mouse

\m/ \m/

Igor1941
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Posts: 461
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:05 pm

Re: Panther and Tiger too expensive

Post by Igor1941 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:25 pm

Image

kondi754
Lieutenant-General - Do 217E
Lieutenant-General - Do 217E
Posts: 3157
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:52 am

Re: Panther and Tiger too expensive

Post by kondi754 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:25 pm

If Pzkw IV costs 160RPs, so Panther should costs 225RPs and Tiger I 450RPs
I think that Panther should lose its efficency as fast as it is now, but Tiger should have this time extended by 1-2 turns, since it costs so much.
It is a fact that by the time of the Battle of Kursk, Henschel eliminated most serious defects, so the Tigers were less damaging than the Panther.

I am more inclined to the @ivanov opinion.

ivanov
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Posts: 568
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:57 am
Location: Spain

Re: Panther and Tiger too expensive

Post by ivanov » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:19 pm

kondi754 wrote: It is a fact that by the time of the Battle of Kursk, Henschel eliminated most serious defects, so the Tigers were less damaging than the Panther.
+1
Mickey Mouse

\m/ \m/

bebro
The Artistocrats
The Artistocrats
Posts: 3308
Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2006 12:50 pm

Re: Panther and Tiger too expensive

Post by bebro » Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:50 am

At Kursk the later Tiger is available that has *no* unreliable trait anymore, so does behave "normally" efficency-wise.

Andy2012
Order of Battle Moderator
Order of Battle Moderator
Posts: 1803
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:55 pm

Re: Panther and Tiger too expensive

Post by Andy2012 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:51 am

Mujado wrote:Considering this is a game that doesn't portray warfare realistically in first place, I think gameplay and balance are slightly more important than actual real life costs. I know this is no Starcraft where everything has to be balanced to perfection, but there is no point in a Tiger at all. Might as well make it more of a choice, just for gameplay reason. It's a wasted unit.
Yes, but OoB still has a Multiplayer part. So thinking about balance is pretty important. However, Slitherine does not have the awesome monetary power of Blizzard, so endless balancing to get it right is not possible. There are patches, though.

In my mind, the most pressing adjustment is discounted upgrades in tanks and Stugs. There was some discussion in the review thread how it is worthwhile to skip upgrades because they are just too expensive.

kondi754
Lieutenant-General - Do 217E
Lieutenant-General - Do 217E
Posts: 3157
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:52 am

Re: Panther and Tiger too expensive

Post by kondi754 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:41 am

bebro wrote:At Kursk the later Tiger is available that has *no* unreliable trait anymore, so does behave "normally" efficency-wise.
Ok, it's a very important info for me. Cool :!:
I love such small details of this game, which are based on historical accuracy - I must admit there are a lot of them in this part ... 8)

I haven't managed to play Kursk scn yet, I'm just finishing Winterstorm. (have 1 Tiger tank and try to use it wisely :wink: )
Can anyone write to me whether there is any sense to unlock 6th Army?
Is it really profitable in the next missions?
Or maybe is it better to save resources?

kverdon
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Posts: 287
Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:38 am

Re: Panther and Tiger too expensive

Post by kverdon » Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:33 pm

Yeah, unlocking the 6th Army is probably worth it even if you only get them for Kursk. If you play it right, you can do it alongside your primary mission to capture the bridge. What I do is stabilize the river front and drive the Soviets back. I also get the Stalingrad City defenses squared away so that they are no longer in danger of being over run. I use my flown in RP to bolster up the Mk IV and a few place 2 Core inf in Stalingrad. I stage these to the W/SW of the City. Once the River Battle is over I take those forces and begin an Attack SE towards the bridge I coordinate this with a push SW from Stalingrad. My 3 Stukas provide Air Support to suppress Soviet Armor/Arty. If things work out right your 2 groups will meet up just north of the bridge objective. Long Range Arty is very helpful in this scenario.

SimTheSor
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:24 pm

Re: Panther and Tiger too expensive

Post by SimTheSor » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:04 pm

bebro wrote:At Kursk the later Tiger is available that has *no* unreliable trait anymore, so does behave "normally" efficency-wise.
Oh! I saw this upgrade and didn't notice that. Was about to post this as an error ... hehe!
So ... then I'm fine with the way the DEVS implemented the TIGER.

hrafnkolbrandr
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:26 pm

Re: Panther and Tiger too expensive

Post by hrafnkolbrandr » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:47 pm

I just had to drop 98 RP for two points of elite repair when I put my Tiger a little too far forward. Efficiency loss from "unreliable" and an M3 Stuart to the face cost me; and I haven't even played the next turn yet, so it may not be over.

When repairing units, is there a cost difference between repairing only, and repairing after the unit has moved? Or is the only difference in how much health gets repaired?

Edit: I should also note that my other Tigers, staying nearby infantry and panzer iv's for support, are absolutely wrecking face; and worth every penny.

Mojko
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Posts: 489
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:04 am

Re: Panther and Tiger too expensive

Post by Mojko » Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:27 am

hrafnkolbrandr wrote:I just had to drop 98 RP for two points of elite repair when I put my Tiger a little too far forward. Efficiency loss from "unreliable" and an M3 Stuart to the face cost me; and I haven't even played the next turn yet, so it may not be over.

When repairing units, is there a cost difference between repairing only, and repairing after the unit has moved? Or is the only difference in how much health gets repaired?

Edit: I should also note that my other Tigers, staying nearby infantry and panzer iv's for support, are absolutely wrecking face; and worth every penny.
This is actually another example of the lack of game mechanics transparency. There are two different "reinforcement" actions and I'm not talking about repair and standard repair. If a unit has not made any actions you will get a "big reinforce" action. This will restore up to 5 unit strength. If a unit has already moved (and not attacked) you will get "small reinforce" action. This will restore up to 2 unit strength. The thing is if you use "big reinforce" to restore just 1 or 2 strength you may waste RPs. What I do is before each reinforce I will try the "big reinforce" actions and see how much RPs does it cost and then the "small reinforce" and compare prices. Sometimes it can be 10RPs cheaper to do two "small reinforce" actions than one "big reinforce" action.
Author and maintainer of Unit Navigator Tool for Order Of Battle (http://mfendek.byethost16.com/)

kondi754
Lieutenant-General - Do 217E
Lieutenant-General - Do 217E
Posts: 3157
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:52 am

Re: Panther and Tiger too expensive

Post by kondi754 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:37 am

It is also an element of strategy for me.
"Small reinforcement" is good for quick replenishment on the battlefield, when there is too little RPs available.
At that time, I make "this move" intentionally, to save resources. :wink:

hrafnkolbrandr
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:26 pm

Re: Panther and Tiger too expensive

Post by hrafnkolbrandr » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:53 am

Okay, so I'm definitely not losing any *extra* RP's by moving before repairing.

My worry was that it was costing me more RP per point repaired.

kondi754
Lieutenant-General - Do 217E
Lieutenant-General - Do 217E
Posts: 3157
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:52 am

Re: Panther and Tiger too expensive

Post by kondi754 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:17 am

hrafnkolbrandr wrote:Okay, so I'm definitely not losing any *extra* RP's by moving before repairing.

My worry was that it was costing me more RP per point repaired.
No, you don't lose RP's
There are a lot of such small nuances in the game, which are not in the manual.
Maybe I will write my own manual? :lol:

WarHomer
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 339
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:12 pm

Re: Panther and Tiger too expensive

Post by WarHomer » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:29 pm

I don´t mind that Tigers are pricey if they are worth it, but compared to the sturmpanzer, which seems a bit OP to me, this might not be the case.

I definitely don´t think Tigers should only be auxiliary.

hrafnkolbrandr
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:26 pm

Re: Panther and Tiger too expensive

Post by hrafnkolbrandr » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:06 pm

Tigers are definitely worth it, but Panthers are an RP sink. The extra point of movement IS NOT worth the extra repairs you will be making on account of the reduced armor.

That said, you will need to upgrade eventually. After a while, the Panzer IV's don't cut it anymore, and you'll be spending as much to repair those as you will spend to repair your Tigers due to the damage the Panzer IV's will be taking.

Post Reply

Return to “Order of Battle Series”