Advice needed!!

[Halvralf]

Hello all!

I am trying to play the Panzerkrieg DLC with my imported core. Unfortunately I seem to waste way to much RP's in Rzhev as even if I get all objectives (major and minor), in the following scenario I start with around 400ish RP and no artilley bought as I couldn't afford it.

I will probably restart the campaign to get it right but some advice regarding tactics and force (what units) would be very appreciated. I see in http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 64&t=80783
that alot of people have the 17inch artilley, how can they afford to buy that?

Thanks
/Halvralf

[Andy2012]

I suggest you focus your initial core on light infantry mostly and back it up with the 5cm Pak in a star-shaped pattern. (AT behind infantry) At first, light artillery does work wonders but should be upgraded later to heavier units.
At first, reinforce only regular to save money. Rhzev is a defensive mission - only attack when the odds are in your favour. Withdraw to strong defensive positions, dig in.
The more you post about what you do and your core force (maybe even a replay), the more we can help you.
I could post a replay of me finishing the mission, but I guess you want to figure things out yourself and not be patronized. But if you want a replay, just ask.

[Halvralf]

Hello Andy!

Thanks for a swift reply.

As I have done the scenario a couple of times I can explain how I do.

At deployment I leave the most western VP totally . At the VP that has a pillbox west of it where the tanks attack at start I put 3 inf around the town and an AT gun IN the town. The aux unit north of that is supported by another inf and if you have played the scenario with the premade core I put my 2 tanks same as it's done there.

North VP I put a Heavy Inf , west of that VP in the town I put an inf and one inf down at the partisans.

My StuG and the 2 FJ I have I put south of the western VP to counterattack when they advance down. I also reinforce the east with one inf.


My tactics is to let the Soviets attack my position and strike back when I have good odds. I have never failed to get the commander as the AI plays aggressively and imo bit stupid (kommisaries I guess )

What I can't understand is how ppl can have 4 to 5 17cm art in their core forces ?


Cheers
/Halvralf

[PoorOldSpike]

...I will probably restart the campaign to get it right..

If I were you I'd play the standalone scenario first because in scens you can buy pretty much what you like instead of being restricted by the campaign mode..

[Mojko]

What I can't understand is how ppl can have 4 to 5 17cm art in their core forces ?
/Halvralf

You need to up your game in the RP management, mate OOB is quite punishing when it comes to RPs and poor decisions. Overall I take advantage of the cheap reinforcement for infantry, especially engineers to soften up targets. Only after that I dare attack with my precious tanks. Basically if you're taking losses on your tanks during your turn you're doing something wrong.

The other trap is the reinforcement mechanic itself. Never use it on a unit with 9 strength when doing small or large reinforce action. Never use it on a unit with 7 or more strength when doing large reinforce action.

I made a let's play in this thread so you can watch and see how I played the scenario.

[Halvralf]

I made a let's play in this thread so you can watch and see how I played the scenario.

Thanks all for good advice. I'll get on it asap!!

[Andy2012]

Hello Andy!

Thanks for a swift reply.

As I have done the scenario a couple of times I can explain how I do.

At deployment I leave the most western VP totally . At the VP that has a pillbox west of it where the tanks attack at start I put 3 inf around the town and an AT gun IN the town. The aux unit north of that is supported by another inf and if you have played the scenario with the premade core I put my 2 tanks same as it's done there.

North VP I put a Heavy Inf , west of that VP in the town I put an inf and one inf down at the partisans.

My StuG and the 2 FJ I have I put south of the western VP to counterattack when they advance down. I also reinforce the east with one inf.


My tactics is to let the Soviets attack my position and strike back when I have good odds. I have never failed to get the commander as the AI plays aggressively and imo bit stupid (kommisaries I guess )

What I can't understand is how ppl can have 4 to 5 17cm art in their core forces ?


Cheers
/Halvralf

Hm, without a replay this is still hard to gauge. I'd advise a general retreat in the east towards Vyazma and wait for the para counterattack there. Heavy Inf is really expensive and slow. And dont forget to move the light aux AT in the north behind the bunker.
Giving up Bely too soon and easily is not really worth it, IMO. I put on AT and three light inf (star pattern) there plus one light arty.
Also, I hunt the Partisans with two Waffen SS and let them move up north to Bely afterwards as reinforcements. This way, you get the resource boost sooner.
4-5 heavy arty is an exception - I never had more than two.
Mojko is also right about credit management and reinforcements. Tanks and Stukas are very expensive to reinforce. Also, try to save that light aux arty in the east, works wonders.
Also, try to save the isolated pocket in the northwest. Two free units in Demyansk. Make the Nebelwerfer move over the river, hide the AT in the village river crossing. Prioritize arty fire, the Nebelwerfer really cripples everything.

[Halvralf]

Thank you, alot of nice advice.

@Mojko, That replay made my day. Very smart use of the aux units. I guess only one engineer wont do the job need atleast 3?
@ Andy,Thanks for taking the time and giving good advice , I'll be back tonight with a replay (hopefully with a sucess)

[Mojko]

@Mojko, That replay made my day. Very smart use of the aux units. I guess only one engineer wont do the job need atleast 3?

I really like using engineers because they are super easy to replace and they soften up your target quite nicely. Notice that they remove entrenchment and lower enemy efficiency so in a way they act as a small artillery. Also note that engineers have actually very high attack values given the cost of the unit in terrain that has large cover number. The tricky part of the engineers is that you really need to be careful where you deploy them as they are very slow if not on road.

I never buy transports for them as the transport increases the cost of the reinforce action so it's not one time investment. With only 2 CP requirements you can afford to have 3 or 4 engineers without any problem.

Engineers are quite helpful in defence as well. They make your units entrench much faster and can deploy mines. I always use my Waffen SS engineers to lay mines though because I would rather preserve RPs for my core force. Also it's quite nice that if you clear mines with your engineers you gain experience

[GabeKnight]

I never buy transports for them as the transport increases the cost of the reinforce action so it's not one time investment.

That's not true, BTW. The initial costs are higher and they use up +1 LCP, of course, but the repair costs are the same.

[Mojko]

I never buy transports for them as the transport increases the cost of the reinforce action so it's not one time investment.

That's not true, BTW. The initial costs are higher and they use up +1 LCP, of course, but the repair costs are the same.

Thanks for clarification. I was sure that I tested this, but then I noticed that sometimes the repair costs different even if the unit is the same (same type and exp) and same repair action is used on same strength. Maybe it depends on the unit origin? Some of my units were imported from my previous core and some were purchased during the play-trough. It's a little bit confusing.

[CoolDTA]

Thanks for clarification. I was sure that I tested this, but then I noticed that sometimes the repair costs different even if the unit is the same (same type and exp) and same repair action is used on same strength. Maybe it depends on the unit origin? Some of my units were imported from my previous core and some were purchased during the play-trough. It's a little bit confusing.

This is because the game obviously uses decimal values invisible to the player. It also means you can reinforce units with whatever number of strength points without a fear of using RPs inefficiently. For instance a unit showing 7 strength points can be anything between 6.5 and 7.4(9) resulting in differences in repair costs.

[Mojko]

This is because the game obviously uses decimal values invisible to the player. It also means you can reinforce units with whatever number of strength points without a fear of using RPs inefficiently. For instance a unit showing 7 strength points can be anything between 6.5 and 7.4(9) resulting in differences in repair costs.

I'm aware of the decimal values but your statement is not true as of game version 5.2.9. I tested this on one of my 5 star units (the more expensive the unit the larger the difference) of 8 strength. Large repair action costs 22RPs, small one costs 20RPs and the effect is the same. In other words: you hit repair you pay 22RPs, you hit move and repair and it costs 20RPs.

The cost is the same only for very cheap units and even then there can be differences (like 2RPs or 3RPs).

[CoolDTA]

I'm aware of the decimal values but your statement is not true as of game version 5.2.9. I tested this on one of my 5 star units (the more expensive the unit the larger the difference) of 8 strength. Large repair action costs 22RPs, small one costs 20RPs and the effect is the same. In other words: you hit repair you pay 22RPs, you hit move and repair and it costs 20RPs.

The cost is the same only for very cheap units and even then there can be differences (like 2RPs or 3RPs).

Okay, thanks for the info, but I'm not sure of the conclusions. Are you certain the repairs are the same? Let's say the exact strength value of your unit was 7.8. With small repair the new strength value is +2 so 9.8. With large repair it is +2.2 so 10. For the player it seems a small repair is more cost effective but that is not the case. Both repairs per strength point fraction cost the same. If you like to do some more testing I'd be happy to see the results.

[GabeKnight]

I hope, this clears it up:
(Unit strength = 8,00, placed by editor)

Screenshot 208.jpg (356.79 KiB) Viewed 2804 times

Screenshot 209.jpg (362.84 KiB) Viewed 2804 times

[Mojko]

I hope, this clears it up (save file attached as well):

[GabeKnight]

Yes, good example, Mojko.
(there's always the possibility of +/-1RP because of rounding!)

Gebirgsjäger '42, 5-star:
small repair: 20RP (2HP)
big repair: 49RP (5HP)

In your screenshots: after moving: 20RP (=2.0 HP), before moving: 25RP (~2.4 HP). I guess you were lucky that your unit must have been about 7.6 HP at that point.

But the question still remains, if your unit really has a HP=10.0 after the "small" repair or just 9.6 looking like 10. If the small repair indeed rounds up HP as well, then Mojko's right and it IS cheaper that way.

[CoolDTA]

Thanks for posting the images, Gabe and Mojko! They do show what I said holds truth.

In Gabe's images we know the unit strength is 8.0 so the cost of the repair should be the same in both cases and it is.

In Mojko's images we do not know the unit strength but we can make a logical assumption:

The true unit strength of the Engineers is 7.8. A small repair adds 2.0 and costs 10 RPs. A large repair adds 2.2 (so that exactly 10 HPs is reached) and thus should cost 10% more if the cost per strength point fraction is the same. The image shows this to be the case.

The true unit strength of the Gebirgsjäger is 7.5. A small repair adds 2.0 and costs 20 RPs. A large repair adds 2.5 (so that exactly 10 HPs is reached) and thus should cost 25% more if the cost per strength point fraction is the same. Again the image shows this to be the case.

Conclusion: repairs per strength point fraction cost the same. Whether you use small or large repair is irrelevant.

[CoolDTA]

But the question still remains, if your unit really has a HP=10.0 after the "small" repair or just 9.6 looking like 10. If the small repair indeed rounds up HP as well, then Mojko's right and it IS cheaper that way.

I don't think it does. I suppose all of us who have played the campaigns have seen the effect: the prognosis shows your losses will be 0 but when you resolve the battle you lose a strength point. Or for instance two apparently identical units attack the same unit: for the first one the prognosis shows let's say 3+ HPs losses for the enemy and for the other 4 HP. Logically in both cases this is because the true strengths of the units are actually not the same.

[GabeKnight]

The program always rounds up (meaning 16.3 = 17) when it comes to RPs with the repair costs:

German PzKVI Tiger, new=280RP
Repair costs, 5-star:
196RP - 5HP (=39.20 RP/HP)
157RP - 4HP (=39.25 RP/HP)
118RP - 3HP (=39.33 RP/HP)
79RP - 2HP (=39.5 RP/HP)
40RP - 1HP (=40.0 RP/HP)

In other words, for expensive units the large repair is indeed the cheapest. But we're talking about 4RP's max out of 200RP's repair costs!!!

PS: Sorry Halvralf, if we're spoiling your thread