No Rhyme/Reason to Elite Replacements???

Order of Battle is a series of operational WW2 games starting with the Pacific War and then on to Europe!

Moderators: Order of Battle Moderators, The Artistocrats

stan23
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Posts: 193
Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:35 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

No Rhyme/Reason to Elite Replacements???

Post by stan23 » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:51 pm

There seems to be no rhyme or reason to the the RP cost of elite replacements. One point for a particular unit may cost 7 or 8 RP per point,
the next unit of the same class and same experience level cost 15-20 RP per point. Can anybody explain the formula to me? I should say I
always use elite replacements for my core units at the start of a new scenario, never during. Does a unit that has a Commander cost more?
Do different units within the same class cost more? I can't figure it out and I'm hoping someone smarter than me out there in the community can help. :D
Thanx to all replies and
Greets from Virginia.

CoolDTA
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 324
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:52 am

Re: No Rhyme/Reason to Elite Replacements???

Post by CoolDTA » Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:11 am

The RP cost is logical, but the problem is that for some unknown reasons the devs like to keep everything they can hidden. This is very much the opposite to say, Panzer Corps, which even has the excellent detailed after combat report. But that's the way it is and it hasn't prevented me from buying all the DLCs and the forthcoming ones also. :)

So, what follows is how I see it from my experience:

Replacement cost = Price x Amount x Experience x Quality x Discount

Price is the purchase price of the unit.

Amount is the amount of strength points you get. It can be something between 0.51 - 5.00 pts. The game uses fractions, so for instance what looks like being exactly 2, may actually be only 1.51. This is why two apparently identical units may have a different repair cost. For instance let's assume unit A has an actual strength of 5.6 and unit B 6.4. The game shows both having a strength of 6. Now if you use the big repair, unit A gains +4.4 and unit B +3.6 strength points., but it looks like both got exactly 4 points at different cost for no reason.

Experience is the figure you see if you hover the mouse over the stars (0 - 10,000). Two thousand points equals to one star, but the cost formula uses the exact value.

Quality is the quality of the replacements used (regular/elite). Elite replacements do not lower the experience of the unit, but are much more expensive.

Discount is something you can get from a specialisation like Pilot Rotation.

Note that the formula above is not the real formula in the game, but a method to show the variables involved. It is all very logical, but shrouded in a veil of mystery. ;) Note also that I used only two decimals to keep the explanation simple, but the game likely uses more.

I might have forgotten something, but that's it for now.

Shards
Slitherine
Slitherine
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:05 am

Re: No Rhyme/Reason to Elite Replacements???

Post by Shards » Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:45 am

Also, you'll get better value from replacing more strength at once.

e.g. Replacing 5 Strength will usually be better value than 2 strength, which will also be better value than 1 strength (often due to rounding of decimals, as CoolDTA points out).

It costs more to maintain a unit at high experience as the replacements that must be drafted in must be of that same high quality. So it's generally only worth maintaining a few units at high XP otherwise you'll be paying crippling costs. Personally, I'll try to maintain my airforce, artillery, lead Tankers and Heavy Infantry at high xp and just use normal replacements for the rest.

cutydt02
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:04 am

Re: No Rhyme/Reason to Elite Replacements???

Post by cutydt02 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:02 am

the point is, this game doesnt show how effective the expriment work. NOT like in panzer corps, you can easy realise how elite unit smash enemy, stand ground and explain how, Oob just hide all of it.
I sometimes wonder when i should use regular replacement when i cant see decent different from 3 stars to 5 stars

CoolDTA
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 324
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:52 am

Re: No Rhyme/Reason to Elite Replacements???

Post by CoolDTA » Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:12 am

Shards wrote:Also, you'll get better value from replacing more strength at once.

e.g. Replacing 5 Strength will usually be better value than 2 strength, which will also be better value than 1 strength (often due to rounding of decimals, as CoolDTA points out.
The difference is very small, pretty much negligible (max 2% for expensive units and usually less), but yes, it is there. Gabe made an example in one thread, so I'll paste it here (thanks Gabe! :)):

German PzKVI Tiger, new=280RP
Repair costs, 5-star:
196RP - 5HP (=39.20 RP/HP)
157RP - 4HP (=39.25 RP/HP)
118RP - 3HP (=39.33 RP/HP)
79RP - 2HP (=39.5 RP/HP)
40RP - 1HP (=40.0 RP/HP)

In other words, for expensive units the large repair is indeed the cheapest. But we're talking about 4RP's max out of 200RP's repair costs!!! :lol:

GabeKnight
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Posts: 2209
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:24 pm

Re: No Rhyme/Reason to Elite Replacements???

Post by GabeKnight » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:32 pm

Well, I can't think of more to add to what CoolDTA and Shards said, except I got a bit encouraged to do a small test again :wink:
Screenshot 470.jpg
Screenshot 470.jpg (598.64 KiB) Viewed 2035 times
So, for those interested I did a bit reverse-math and the formulas for repair cost should be as follows:
(tested on land units only, but I guess it applies to all :?: )

Regular repair cost = unit cost * HP * 0.05
Elite repair cost = unit cost * HP * (0.06 + 0.008 * experience/1000)

(spec "Discounts" not included; and don't forget the game always rounds up to full RP)

stan23
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Posts: 193
Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:35 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: No Rhyme/Reason to Elite Replacements???

Post by stan23 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:25 pm

Thanx Guys. Very Good answers :D
I wouldn't have figured out in a million years they used fractions.
But CoolDTA brings up a point that has both puzzled and irritated me since I came over from Panzer Corps and
started playing OOB, and that is all the 'secrecy'. Let me explain.
I like Kradschutz units (Zundapp Motorcycle) and I like Cavalry, but now with the Sandstorm update,
Zundapp's are now hidden and no longer available, even in the editor, and the cavalry STILL :evil: has the graphical bug I jokingly
call 'pick up you rifles' glitch and there are many others. I really don't like that one damn bit! The Devs seem to be very tonedeaf to gamer complaints.
I don't know if this is intentional or not, (it's probably not), but to me personally, many times OOB seems to be unnecessarily frustrating.
PC may be a more simplistic game I suppose, but modding it to where you got the game YOU liked was easy.
Not OOB. I'm still waiting for the Sandstorm patch, BTW.
Anyway-Rant Finished.
Thanx again for the answers guys and
Greets from Virginia

Shards
Slitherine
Slitherine
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:05 am

Re: No Rhyme/Reason to Elite Replacements???

Post by Shards » Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:44 am

Hi,

Which Sandstorm patch are you waiting for?

CoolDTA
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 324
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:52 am

Re: No Rhyme/Reason to Elite Replacements???

Post by CoolDTA » Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:20 am

GabeKnight wrote: So, for those interested I did a bit reverse-math and the formulas for repair cost should be as follows:
(tested on land units only, but I guess it applies to all :?: )

Regular repair cost = unit cost * HP * 0.05
Elite repair cost = unit cost * HP * (0.06 + 0.008 * experience/1000)
:shock:

Wow, you're the wizard. :D There's an inconsistency in the formulas (or rather in the game) - directly linked to your post in the Tech forum, I see. The devs probably should consult you with the math. :idea:

And I really like your armoured core in the image. Seems to be ready to face the Soviets in Volkskrieg. :wink:

stan23
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Posts: 193
Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:35 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: No Rhyme/Reason to Elite Replacements???

Post by stan23 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:33 pm

Shards
You mentioned a patch on 24 May in the 'First Patch' post.
I hope I'm not misunderstanding that there would be a patch out eventually to fix the issues mentioned in that particular post.
Greets from Virginia.

stan23
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Posts: 193
Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:35 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: No Rhyme/Reason to Elite Replacements???

Post by stan23 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:36 pm

Wait..
Is 6.1.8 what I've been waiting for?
I just noticed.

Shards
Slitherine
Slitherine
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:05 am

Re: No Rhyme/Reason to Elite Replacements???

Post by Shards » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:47 pm

Hi,

Yes, that's the latest patch :)

stan23
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Posts: 193
Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:35 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: No Rhyme/Reason to Elite Replacements???

Post by stan23 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:51 pm

:D :D :D

stan23
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Posts: 193
Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:35 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: No Rhyme/Reason to Elite Replacements???

Post by stan23 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:06 pm

Do replacements cost the same during battle and at the start of the scenario?
Do units with Commanders cost more?
Just curious.

13obo
Master Sergeant - U-boat
Master Sergeant - U-boat
Posts: 534
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:01 am

Re: No Rhyme/Reason to Elite Replacements???

Post by 13obo » Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:44 pm

Yes - this is not PzC.
No - they do not. Commanders are detachable and not bound to unit. They do impact the amount of experience the unit gains though if the commander adds infantry/mechanical attack, because more damage = more exp.

stan23
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Posts: 193
Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:35 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: No Rhyme/Reason to Elite Replacements???

Post by stan23 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:06 pm

Thanx 13obo

bru888
Order of Battle Moderator
Order of Battle Moderator
Posts: 2802
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:39 pm

Re: No Rhyme/Reason to Elite Replacements???

Post by bru888 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:22 pm

This was a very good thread! I finally got around to cleaning out some of my "Other Bookmarks" to be kept and categorized or absorbed and deleted at a later date, and this was one of them. In this case, I gleaned information from it for one of my OOB information text files as shown below. Thanks, guys.

Image0194.jpg
Image0194.jpg (327.12 KiB) Viewed 1152 times
- Bru

Horst
Colonel - Ju 88A
Colonel - Ju 88A
Posts: 1568
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:22 pm

Re: No Rhyme/Reason to Elite Replacements???

Post by Horst » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:48 pm

Or summarized: never use elite-repair! :P
I don't know how often I have thought I had enough spare RP left just to realize how quickly I was blank again after upgrading many units.

Mojko
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Posts: 447
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:04 am

Re: No Rhyme/Reason to Elite Replacements???

Post by Mojko » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:26 pm

Horst wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:48 pm
Or summarized: never use elite-repair! :P
I don't know how often I have thought I had enough spare RP left just to realize how quickly I was blank again after upgrading many units.
I definitely disagree with that. The trick to keeping your RP high is not avoiding elite repair, but to redirect majority of incoming damage to your meatshield units like engineers and and normal infantry. Your tanks should never attack enemy unit that has 8 or more efficiency unless the unit is really low strength. This is the true key to massing large amounts of RPs so you can afford superior unit upgrades. Another important thing to note is that you should plan your unit composition ahead of time so you can take advantage of discounted upgrades, saving even more RPs. I always use the Unit navigator tool to scout upgrade paths and decide on unit composition. For example I completely skipped the useless Panzer III path and stuck with Panzer IV all the time. Even in later stages of Sandstorm the Panzer IV is absolutely adequate when fighting US / British tanks.

TLDR: if you can't afford Elite unit repair, you're playing sub-optimally and you should review your strategy.
Author and maintainer of Unit Navigator Tool for Order Of Battle (http://mfendek.byethost16.com/)

Horst
Colonel - Ju 88A
Colonel - Ju 88A
Posts: 1568
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:22 pm

Re: No Rhyme/Reason to Elite Replacements???

Post by Horst » Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:23 pm

I possibly have too many variants with my mod, hence the higher demand of upgrade-fun. Neverthless, I think it depends on nation and campaign, in particular the campaign length how the RP management goes along. Pre-knowledge of scenarios and knowing-your-nation surely make a huge difference. Tough units like tanks and artillery surely can make it to 5 stars without any elite-repairs.

Post Reply

Return to “Order of Battle Series”