Bridge repair possible ?

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AndreyBacerage
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Bridge repair possible ?

Post by AndreyBacerage » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:56 am

Some questions:
1. Its possible, to repair bridges also or only to build up ponton bridges ?
2. Its possible to trigger KI based engineers to destroy a bridge ?
3. Its possible to trigger KI based engineers to build up a ponton bridge ?
4. Its possible to trigger KI based engineers to build up a mine field ?
5. Also I played Erics campaigns and the KI enginers never clean minefields - they only attack them - its a bug or not programmed out or ?

GabeKnight
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Re: Bridge repair possible ?

Post by GabeKnight » Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:19 am

AndreyBacerage wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:56 am
Some questions:
1. Its possible, to repair bridges also or only to build up ponton bridges ?
2. Its possible to trigger KI based engineers to destroy a bridge ?
3. Its possible to trigger KI based engineers to build up a ponton bridge ?
4. Its possible to trigger KI based engineers to build up a mine field ?
5. Also I played Erics campaigns and the KI enginers never clean minefields - they only attack them - its a bug or not programmed out or ?
1) basically the same
2) yeah, see Eriks campaigns
3) don't know, maybe. but you can preplace them
4) kind of with triggers
5) they do clear them

AndreyBacerage
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Re: Bridge repair possible ?

Post by AndreyBacerage » Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:45 am

1) basically the same
Its not the same - its not possible to repair - only lay a ponton !
2) yeah, see Eriks campaigns
Eric use only triggers to lay minefields without any engineers in the near - I think its inpossible to lay mines with KI engineers !
3) don't know, maybe. but you can preplace them
Not really ! I never find a trigger to build an ponton bridge - so the KI cant use this feature !
4) kind of with triggers
Same like the ponton bridges - only the trigger lay the minefield - not the enginners in an special programmed battle situations.
5) they do clear them
Never have seen them to do that !

Thank you - but looks I have to wait for some developers pronouncements.
I think you can give me unfortunately only non-continuing OoB knowledge.

bru888
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Re: Bridge repair possible ?

Post by bru888 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:39 pm

Interesting question about the engineers and mines. To my knowledge, you cannot choreograph engineers to either lay mines or remove them (same with support ships, in the case of sea mines, which is what I was trying to do). What needs to be done is a clumsy routine of "when an engineer (support ship) is next to this hex, place/remove mine" which is a tedious process when creating/eliminating a minefield.
- Bru

bebro
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Re: Bridge repair possible ?

Post by bebro » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:14 pm

AndreyBacerage wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:45 am
5) they do clear them
Never have seen them to do that !

Thank you - but looks I have to wait for some developers pronouncements.
I think you can give me unfortunately only non-continuing OoB knowledge.
I see AI/Sov engineers clearing land mines routinely without triggers in ES' Smolensk 43 scn.

But the circumstances need to fit. If you got an engineer positioned near mines (or on the right path), the needed RP, and an AI setting that corresponds (not static, what move orders etc.) AI engs clear mines indeed.

Laying mines is different. You can't trigger an engineer directly to lay a mine, but you can spawn mines by trigger as such.

bru888
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Re: Bridge repair possible ?

Post by bru888 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:35 pm

bebro wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:14 pm
I see AI/Sov engineers clearing land mines routinely without triggers in ES' Smolensk 43 scn.

But the circumstances need to fit. If you got an engineer positioned near mines (or on the right path), the needed RP, and an AI setting that corresponds (not static, what move orders etc.) AI engs clear mines indeed.

Laying mines is different. You can't trigger an engineer directly to lay a mine, but you can spawn mines by trigger as such.
You're right, of course, as these test screen shots indicate. They did prioritize combat over mine clearing in the first turn, but perhaps that's because they needed RP to accumulate (you give them only 5 per turn, 0 to start with):

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Still, you cannot specifically order an engineer to clear mines; it appears to be something that they do as part of a mission, as you said. (Also, mines at half-strength may be a factor in their willingness.)

My problem is in trying to get support ships to do the same with sea mines. I'll try it again.
- Bru

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Re: Bridge repair possible ?

Post by Halvralf » Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:53 pm

bebro wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:14 pm
AndreyBacerage wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:45 am
5) they do clear them
Never have seen them to do that !

Thank you - but looks I have to wait for some developers pronouncements.
I think you can give me unfortunately only non-continuing OoB knowledge.
I see AI/Sov engineers clearing land mines routinely without triggers in ES' Smolensk 43 scn.

But the circumstances need to fit. If you got an engineer positioned near mines (or on the right path), the needed RP, and an AI setting that corresponds (not static, what move orders etc.) AI engs clear mines indeed.

Laying mines is different. You can't trigger an engineer directly to lay a mine, but you can spawn mines by trigger as such.
You don't need RP to clear mines, only to lay them.
"They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance."

bebro
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Re: Bridge repair possible ?

Post by bebro » Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:01 pm

My bad, confused it :)

bru888
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Re: Bridge repair possible ?

Post by bru888 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:21 pm

Halvralf wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:53 pm
You don't need RP to clear mines, only to lay them.
Ah! That explains why the engineers, at least one of them, could go after a mine on the second turn, when apparently they would only have 5 RP to play with at that point.

Well, does anybody have any insights on support ships and sea mines in this regard? As I said, I'll try it again, using Naval Capture/Defend Hex or Naval Seek & Destroy, with support ships in their own AI team just in case. It seemed, though, that support ships will not go anywhere near an enemy mine, even when it's revealed to the AI.

P.S.: Sly reference, that quote of "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance." I had heard it before and knew it was famous and from the American Civil War but I did not remember who had said it. Talk about famous last words. :(
- Bru

Halvralf
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Re: Bridge repair possible ?

Post by Halvralf » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:20 pm

bru888 wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:21 pm
P.S.: Sly reference, that quote of "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance." I had heard it before and knew it was famous and from the American Civil War but I did not remember who had said it. Talk about famous last words. :(
Yes, and I think he was the highest ranking officer to be killed in action in the entire war.
"They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance."

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Re: Bridge repair possible ?

Post by terminator » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:25 pm

bru888 wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:21 pm
P.S.: Sly reference, that quote of "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance." I had heard it before and knew it was famous and from the American Civil War but I did not remember who had said it. Talk about famous last words. :(
John Sedgwick (September 13, 1813 – May 9, 1864) was a teacher, a career military officer, and a Union Army general in the American Civil War.

He was wounded three times at the Battle of Antietam while leading his division in an unsuccessful assault, causing him to miss the Battle of Fredericksburg. Under his command, the VI Corps played an important role in the Chancellorsville Campaign by engaging Confederate troops at the Second Battle of Fredericksburg and the Battle of Salem Church. His corps was the last to arrive at the Battle of Gettysburg and thus did not see much action. Sedgwick was killed by a sharpshooter at the Battle of Spotsylvania Court House on May 9, 1864, making him and Major General John F. Reynolds (July 1, 1863, Gettysburg) the highest-ranking United States soldiers to be killed in the war. He is well remembered for his ironic last words: "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Sedg ... _Civil_War)

GabeKnight
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Re: Bridge repair possible ?

Post by GabeKnight » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:58 pm

bru888 wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:21 pm
Well, does anybody have any insights on support ships and sea mines in this regard? As I said, I'll try it again, using Naval Capture/Defend Hex or Naval Seek & Destroy, with support ships in their own AI team just in case. It seemed, though, that support ships will not go anywhere near an enemy mine, even when it's revealed to the AI.
I guess the mine clearing ability's not programmed into supply ships (yet?). As mines do not influence ZOC with naval, and there's no "terrain" differences either, it just makes no sense for the AI to clear naval mines in the existing scenarios. But I get this being a bummer with custom scens.

On the other hand, I don't see the difference whether I'm creating a trigger to blow up bridges or place mines directly or if I'm doing that with some special trigger with engineers. The workload and result seems to be the same to me. Every location and condition has to be scripted anyways.

But for the AI engineers to be able to "repair" bridges or build ponton bridges on their own, that would be a change request I'd support.

bru888
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Re: Bridge repair possible ?

Post by bru888 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:16 am

Yes, thanks Gabe. That's what I am after and what I'm missing, the capability of directing engineers and supply ships to lay mines and clear mines as a special task. We have seen that AI engineers will clear mines in support of a move to hex kind of mission, but they do so in their own good time. And I think you are confirming that supply ships will not even do this much on their own. In my tests, supply ships will not approach a revealed sea mine. Hence, clearing mines has to be choreographed and, when you need to do it on a mine-by-mine basis, it can be tedious programming.

Especially for the idea that I had in mind which was me desperately using a hijacked supply ship to lay a field of sea mines in order to help hold off a powerful enemy fleet on its way to attack a harbor. I wanted their AI supply ships to be hunting these mines and thwarting my efforts if I did not move fast enough. As it is, if I even just partially complete the sea minefield, their entire fleet turns wimpy mainly because their supply ships are quite shy and will not approach the mines on their own.
- Bru

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Re: Bridge repair possible ?

Post by GabeKnight » Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:15 pm

bru888 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:16 am
And I think you are confirming that supply ships will not even do this much on their own. In my tests, supply ships will not approach a revealed sea mine. Hence, clearing mines has to be choreographed and, when you need to do it on a mine-by-mine basis, it can be tedious programming.
Yeah, none of the support ships (I hope it's a typo, because supply ships can't clear mines anyway) did anything. Danced around them mines a little... :wink: And as naval has been kind of neglected after Kriegsmarine, it's safe to assume that no real changes have been made there since. But at least the the AI will send submerged subs through the minefield.

I fully agree that adding the mine clearing task to support ships in the AI code would be a reasonable change request for the BugDB.

bru888
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Re: Bridge repair possible ?

Post by bru888 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:26 pm

Yeah, a typo. I regularly mix up "supply" and "support" but I'm definitely talking about support ships both here and in my tests.
- Bru

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Re: Bridge repair possible ?

Post by terminator » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:04 am

Impossible to repair a Rail Bridge :!:

Screenshot 418.png
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But strangely it is possible to pass on the destroyed railway bridge :shock:
Is it a bug or is it purposely done not to block the railway because it is impossible to repair a railway bridge :?:

Screenshot 419.png
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:arrow: Personally, I think it is not a bug and that it is done purposely not to block the railway track.
"Hasta la Vista, Baby...I'll Be Back"

GabeKnight
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Re: Bridge repair possible ?

Post by GabeKnight » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:11 am

terminator wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:04 am
Impossible to repair a Rail Bridge :!:
But strangely it is possible to pass on the destroyed railway bridge :shock:
Yeah, I've tried to give the engineers the ability to repair rail bridges, but couldn't figure out a way how to mod that so far.
And I think I've formulated that as a suggestion somewhere, too.

terminator wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:04 am
:arrow: Personally, I think it is not a bug and that it is done purposely not to block the railway track.
Agree.

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