This game needs a Ju-88 or similar tactical bomber.

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Pegon
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This game needs a Ju-88 or similar tactical bomber.

Post by Pegon » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:50 am

Like the title says, we need a more modern tactical bomber than the Stuka. It really is a hole in the line after 1942, when it was obsolete.

kondi754
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Re: This game needs a Ju-88 or similar tactical bomber.

Post by kondi754 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:53 pm

There is Fw 190F, who took over the role of Stukas as a direct battlefield support and precision strike airctaft
Ju 88 never served as such way as Stukas - it was medium bomber, tactical sensu stricte, so attacked supply bases, communication routes, and the areas of concentration of enemy troops in the back of the frontline, not above frontline
In addition, in 1944, the German industry ceased production of bombers and focused only on new types of fighters
In my opinion, the only problem may be land-attack statistics Fw 190F, which are much lower than Stukas, but let's agree that it will be hard to get closer to Ju 87, because it was much slower aircraft, making him more precise at the current level of electronics development, where there wasn't yet missile guidance systems for example

Pegon
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Re: This game needs a Ju-88 or similar tactical bomber.

Post by Pegon » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:28 am

I believe you are confusing the ju-88 with the ju-88, a common mistake. There was a version with solid nose, heavy guns, rockets, better armour and bigger engines. It was used extensively for ground attack. Since the me-410 has been slotted as a fighter it really is the best late war German Zerstorer for this game.

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Re: This game needs a Ju-88 or similar tactical bomber.

Post by GiveWarAchance » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:59 am

Stuka, HS 129, and Ju-88 were all good bombers from 1942 to war end.

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Re: This game needs a Ju-88 or similar tactical bomber.

Post by GabeKnight » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:24 am

Pegon wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:28 am
I believe you are confusing the ju-88 with the ju-88, a common mistake.
:lol: Sorry, I've had some beers already and I don't want to offend anyone, but this is seriously funny to me. Am I confusing with confusing? :lol:

Pegon
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Re: This game needs a Ju-88 or similar tactical bomber.

Post by Pegon » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:31 am

No, you are simply unaware of the history of the ju-88. Did you know that it had dive brakes, and was developed and tested with dive bombing in mind ? And i am still trying to make the developers aware of a hole in the game, where Germany still has no survivable late war bomber. Something that was not the case in reality.
If you don´t like the ju-88, be constructive and find something else.

Erik2
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Re: This game needs a Ju-88 or similar tactical bomber.

Post by Erik2 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:30 am

According to wikipedia the Ju88 V5 and V6 heavy dive bomber version made their maiden flight in 1938.
The Ju88 C2 to C6 series was a fighter-bomber version.
The Ju88 P series was used as a ground attack bomber, the P2 was useful against Soviet tanks on the East front.
The Ju88 C, R and G series was modified as a heavy night fighter.

So the devs could create switchable Ju88-versions to cover these variants. The Ju88 should also be available in a torpedo role.

kondi754
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Re: This game needs a Ju-88 or similar tactical bomber.

Post by kondi754 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:25 am

Pegon wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:28 am
I believe you are confusing the ju-88 with the ju-88, a common mistake. There was a version with solid nose, heavy guns, rockets, better armour and bigger engines. It was used extensively for ground attack. Since the me-410 has been slotted as a fighter it really is the best late war German Zerstorer for this game.
I know that Ju 88 was a multi-purpose aircraft and I know about dive bomber version but it was marginal for operational scale
Focke Wulf took over Stukas' role
Last edited by kondi754 on Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

kondi754
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Re: This game needs a Ju-88 or similar tactical bomber.

Post by kondi754 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:33 am

Erik2 wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:30 am
According to wikipedia the Ju88 V5 and V6 heavy dive bomber version made their maiden flight in 1938.
The Ju88 C2 to C6 series was a fighter-bomber version.
The Ju88 P series was used as a ground attack bomber, the P2 was useful against Soviet tanks on the East front.
The Ju88 C, R and G series was modified as a heavy night fighter.

So the devs could create switchable Ju88-versions to cover these variants. The Ju88 should also be available in a torpedo role.
Describe, please, examples of the use of Ju 88 against Russian tanks and in general as support in the battlefield, only specific examples
I'm curious myself... :idea: 8) but I'm sure that if something like this happened, it was a one-off project

It seems to me that it is just like in the case of Me 410, where in some sources they write that it was used to support the battlefield, but this is completely untrue
An example is the attack on Soviet tanks at Lake Balaton, but the truth is there were Me 210s from Hungarian air force (previously given by the Luftwaffe for Hungarian)

Erik2
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Re: This game needs a Ju-88 or similar tactical bomber.

Post by Erik2 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:19 am

Got it from this wikipedia article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_88

kondi754
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Re: This game needs a Ju-88 or similar tactical bomber.

Post by kondi754 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:48 am

Erik2 wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:19 am
Got it from this wikipedia article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_88
Due to the lack of sufficient numbers of Ju 87 Stukas, the Ju 88 was employed in the direct ground support role. This resulted in severe losses from ground fire. Kampfgeschwader 1, Kampfgeschwader 76 and Kampfgeschwader 77 reported the loss of 18 Ju 88s over enemy territory on 23 June. KG 76 and KG 77 reported the loss of a further four Ju 88s, of which 12 were 100% destroyed.[41]
Ju 88P
Anti-tank and bomber destroyer variant with single Bordkanone series 75 mm (2.95 in), 50 mm (1.97 in), or twin 37 mm (1.46 in) calibre cannon in conformal ventral fuselage gun pod mount, which mandated removal of the Bola gondola under the cockpit section, conversion of A-series bomber. Produced in small series only, they were perceived as a failure for both anti-tank[55] and anti-bomber use.
Sory Erik, but these quotes do not encourage us to consider Ju 88 as full-fledged close support battlefield aircraft
I agree Ju 88 did sometimes such services but have doubts it is justifiable to create another model in the game of the operational scale
In general, I'm an opponent of multiplying equipment types in OoB, it's not Panzercorps, here the real units on the map symbiilized some larger tactical units in reality
BTW, I think that Devs were inconsistent in creating this game. For example: why is Sturer Emil here, which produced only 2 copies?, but there isn't Marder I or Pz II Flamm, which both fought in significant quantities in North Africa (these were converted by DAK's mechanics ordinary tanks for flamethrower on tracks, several dozen vehicles)

Pegon
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Re: This game needs a Ju-88 or similar tactical bomber.

Post by Pegon » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:17 pm

Well, the fact that Germany produced 900 ju-88 c6 suggest that it was a good ground attack aircraft. However, you may note that I wrote "or similar" in the title. This reflects the fact that we in this game have to use a Stuka to bomb allied ships while being attacked by Gloster Meteors. This is where this game struggles the most with representing reality, and my post was simply meant to discuss this fact and come up with a good solution. Game mechanics says that it must have no ability to attack other aircraft, so it does not skew the balance in the maps. In return it needs better ground and ship attack than the Fw-190.

To me, the ju-88 is the best candidate, if you have another please feel free to make suggestions.

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Re: This game needs a Ju-88 or similar tactical bomber.

Post by kondi754 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:54 pm

Pegon wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:17 pm
Well, the fact that Germany produced 900 ju-88 c6 suggest that it was a good ground attack aircraft. However, you may note that I wrote "or similar" in the title. This reflects the fact that we in this game have to use a Stuka to bomb allied ships while being attacked by Gloster Meteors. This is where this game struggles the most with representing reality, and my post was simply meant to discuss this fact and come up with a good solution. Game mechanics says that it must have no ability to attack other aircraft, so it does not skew the balance in the maps. In return it needs better ground and ship attack than the Fw-190.

To me, the ju-88 is the best candidate, if you have another please feel free to make suggestions.
But I really like such discussions :) , thanks Pegon
I have to read more about using Ju 88-c6 (I mean specialist literature) and think about it more
How exactly was it used? Because it seems to me that this support of the battlefield were mainly attacks on airfields, transport and comm hubs and troops located at the back of the front

Pegon
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Re: This game needs a Ju-88 or similar tactical bomber.

Post by Pegon » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:07 pm

To understand what the ju-88 was, you have to look at how it was designed. The reason I said "you are confusing the ju-88 for the ju-88" is that it was 2 types of aircraft in one. From the beginning, it was designed for dive bombing. To be able to do this it needed stronger wings than a level bomber to be able to pull up swiftly from a dive. It also meant that it could pull more G in any other maneuver. When it was fitted with a solid nose filled with guns, you had an aircraft that could turn quickly on to a target and destroy it. This is the reason it was good on the tactical level. In a dynamic environment it was therefore much more responsive than other two engine bombers.

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Re: This game needs a Ju-88 or similar tactical bomber.

Post by kondi754 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:38 pm

To understand what the ju-88 was, you have to look at how it was designed. The reason I said "you are confusing the ju-88 for the ju-88" is that it was 2 types of aircraft in one. From the beginning, it was designed for dive bombing. To be able to do this it needed stronger wings than a level bomber to be able to pull up swiftly from a dive. It also meant that it could pull more G in any other maneuver. When it was fitted with a solid nose filled with guns, you had an aircraft that could turn quickly on to a target and destroy it. This is the reason it was good on the tactical level. In a dynamic environment it was therefore much more responsive than other two engine bombers.
You know, it's not about how it was built or improved, but about the actual functions and the results it had :wink:

From Wikipedia:
Ju 88 C-6
Heavy fighter and Night fighter, based on A-4, Jumo 211J engines with 1420 PS, 900 built
:?: :!: :wink:

It seems to me that it was built in such a large number of copies because of its use as a night fighter for Reich defence forces
So, the C version was surely just a day zerstorer and night fighter, it fought mainly with Allied strategic bombers

Ju 88 A-14, it was bomber-assault aircraft
It seems that in general model A was used interchangeably for tactical purposes (horizontal bomber) as well as a dive bomber (close support/assault atrcraft)
Ju 88A was used in such way but despite of the reinforced structure it suffered huge losses, so the command limited such attacks

The P version was definitely a failure, I read that apparently the Ju 88P were used as assault aircraft in 1942, in the central and northern front section due to the lack of Ju 87s, which were concentrated in the south - in the Crimea, Stalingrad and the Caucasus
We could say that Ju 88 were sometimes used for tactical purposes when there were no Stukas available
You can increase the land attack coefficients of Ju 88 in game (eg. up to 8, but not more). It is also necessary to reduce these Bf 110 statistics because they are absolutely too high (E version max should also have 8 )

Another thing is the terms we use:tactical bomber is not the same as close battlefied support aircraft
A tactical bomber is, for example, B-26 Marauder, B-25 Mitchell or Martin Baltimore or Douglas Boston. Ju 88 was mainly such a plane, too
They are all used for horizontal attacks on airfields, transport and comms and troops located at the back of the front.
Close battlefield support aircraft was Ju 87, Il 2 Sturmovik, Hs 129, some versions of DH Mosquito, Fw 190F/G, Hawker Typhoon, P-47, or even P-51B/C. They are designed for precision attacks, often from a diving flight
I understand that it's also a sea bomber for attacks on enemy ships, but here you can also increase the statistics of Ju 88, only that such multi-purpose plane should probably cost 300 RPs at least :wink:
In summary, Ju 88 may be such an airplane, but we have to be careful not to overdo it with the statistics
We can do it so that we only increase the attack rates on the ships, and we will leave for Focke-Wulfs the fight with tanks

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Re: This game needs a Ju-88 or similar tactical bomber.

Post by TentacleMayor » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:43 am

But it's in the game... in the Winter War campaign.

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Re: This game needs a Ju-88 or similar tactical bomber.

Post by WarHomer » Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:17 pm

I´m not gonna jump in the specific discussion about actual uses, but concur that the Stuka gets obsolete (too flimsy) and the game needs a more survivable alternative. Also for simple diversity. I really hate in Endsieg that you can only use fighters and maybe the occasional strategic bomber.

I also agree in regards to the naval dilemma.

A quick fix could be reclassifying the Me-410 as a tac bomber, but better alternatives are needed, as this also gets targeted and blown out of the sky too easy in late war.

kondi754
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Re: This game needs a Ju-88 or similar tactical bomber.

Post by kondi754 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:49 pm

I will speak no more in discussions about equipment, it doesn't make sense for me :D , I prefer to create my own Mods, based on historical reality
If someone likes it then I invite him to download soon, Sandstorm in my version will be the first

If you want so much, maybe you should try Ar 234 as a close support aircraft, or if you prefer a tactical bomber :lol: :wink:

Arado Ar-234 strategic version
Ar-234 strategic bomber.jpg
Ar-234 strategic bomber.jpg (467.52 KiB) Viewed 1083 times
Arado Ar-234 close support/tactical version
Ar-234 tactical bomber.jpg
Ar-234 tactical bomber.jpg (474.38 KiB) Viewed 1083 times

kondi754
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Re: This game needs a Ju-88 or similar tactical bomber.

Post by kondi754 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:33 pm

Below link to web article and image which confirm my opinion about Stukas and Focke-Wulfs
Fw 190D RUDEL.jpg
Fw 190D RUDEL.jpg (69.21 KiB) Viewed 1062 times

Pegon
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Re: This game needs a Ju-88 or similar tactical bomber.

Post by Pegon » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:56 pm

Me-410, Arado or Ju-88, they all work for me. As long as we get a tactical bomber that can survive a deep strike mission with escort, or close support unescorted where it can return to base in one turn, I am happy.
Nice that we all see the need for a better tactical bomber for Germany, and can suggest this for the developers.

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