Page 7 of 9

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:53 pm
by uzbek2012
kondi754 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:48 pm
Horst wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:39 pm
While playing Sandstorm in the last scenarios, I've noticed how utterly useless my single Tiger H was, being constantly below 5 efficiency. My other Panzer 4's did a much better job meanwhile.
I don't mind the 50% chance to trigger that effect but 1 eff-point loss is really enough.
Because Pz IV was a real Panzerwaffe workhorse :D
Tigers and Panthers were good in PR (both during the war and after the war), but the real work for the Wehrmacht (and the Waffen SS) was done by the "panzer fours" - the silent hero of this war 8)
Not afraid of himself tank as his drunken crew ! ) But Tiger Tanks could work wonders )
http://mow-portal.ru/forum/6-9-9#4133

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:40 am
by WarHomer
kondi754 wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:33 pm
So you didn't like German GC - Blitzkrieg, Panzerkrieg and Endsieg?
Here, every scenario was a big operation, so you were bored with it I suppose :twisted:
I understand that Sandstorm is more suited to you, with these mini-scenarios, for example naval convoy battle or air attack on Allied trucks?

For me, it's cheating a buyer who spends his hard-earned money on full-fledged battles in an operational scale, but he gets some rushed strategic mini-games :P

Besides, if you want to create this campaign this way you will need at least 4 or 5 parts to finally reach Berlin...
I didn´t find BK, and only PK to some extent, massive and repetitious. I dont know if I would put such a label on ES, but I did find it a bit repetitious and not that diverse, maybe to some extent because there was no room for air diversity (only fighters).

I loved Sandstorm (and BK and PK) and maybe being able to bring some Italians to Endsieg would make this a better DLC. One thing I hated about Sandstorm was that I only got to play with the good Italian tac bomber for one mission. That sucked.

The Sandstorm missions you mention wasn´t my favorites.

Oh, and I totally agree that the unreliable trait is a bad thing. I never buy units with this trait and it just ends up hurting my diversity options.

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:19 am
by kondi754
WarHomer wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:40 am

Oh, and I totally agree that the unreliable trait is a bad thing. I never buy units with this trait and it just ends up hurting my diversity options.
Ok, but this unreliable thing is very little in OoB (Tiger H and Panther D in few missions or Sherman with reinforced armor)
I need this trait mainly as a tool for editing and modifying scenarios but I like and appreciate this option in the game because it adds a lot of realism
In addition, it makes the game more difficult, so it's more interesting for me

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:56 pm
by bebro
I frankly don't understand the problem with "unreliable", esp. not when ppl post they don't use it - that means they use something else, and indeed, there are a lot of alternatives in the German arsenal (or in the US roster, if we include those Shermans).

As for ES being fgt only - you *can* play that way, but you are in no way forced to do so. Sure if ppl want to make quick work of enemy air it's easier with all fgt, but they do rob themselves of any air support they might enjoy once they are over the initial AI air onslaught (in many scns). And if they really want to go all fgt - it's their choice, but then having no further air support is the price to pay.

Few scns aside where all fgt is the most sensible option (Falaise for example) in most others you can easily sustain one or two bomb/attack aircraft - sure you may take losses, but that should surprise noone in a wargame.

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:24 am
by WarHomer
bebro wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:56 pm
I frankly don't understand the problem with "unreliable", esp. not when ppl post they don't use it - that means they use something else, and indeed, there are a lot of alternatives in the German arsenal (or in the US roster, if we include those Shermans).

As for ES being fgt only - you *can* play that way, but you are in no way forced to do so. Sure if ppl want to make quick work of enemy air it's easier with all fgt, but they do rob themselves of any air support they might enjoy once they are over the initial AI air onslaught (in many scns). And if they really want to go all fgt - it's their choice, but then having no further air support is the price to pay.

Few scns aside where all fgt is the most sensible option (Falaise for example) in most others you can easily sustain one or two bomb/attack aircraft - sure you may take losses, but that should surprise noone in a wargame.
I don´t agree and have tried all sorts of combos, but the only sustainable way is all fighters and the occasional heavy strat bomber with the defence hero. Tac bombers get immediately targeted and you just spend most of your time repairing.

The problem with the unreliable trait is that it is too severe and make me avoid the units altogether. No matter how many other options I might have (and not all are viable) I still have one less and by definition limited diversity.

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:35 am
by kondi754
WarHomer wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:24 am

The problem with the unreliable trait is that it is too severe and make me avoid the units altogether. No matter how many other options I might have (and not all are viable) I still have one less and by definition limited diversity.

What's your problem, man?

...order of battle/Order of Battle - WW_64_Data/content/data/units...

You will see the Excel file (it's best to use LibreOffice software to open), delete entry in Traits column and you'll have "unlimited diversity"

units.jpg
units.jpg (469.87 KiB) Viewed 1316 times

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:47 am
by bebro
WarHomer: No offense, but to me this sounds like having a problem with bombers not getting a free shot.

If your attack aircraft take severe damage all the time then you could try to optimize their use. In most scns the enemy is stronger early, later receives only reserve fgt, but not in the same numbers. You could stay away from AI fighters initially, and use your own to fight down enemy air. You could even reserve some air cp for a bomber you might deploy after a couple turns into the scn after things calmed down a bit - again, may not be feasible in all, but in some scns certainly.

There are plenty of things that worked for me, and while I have some insights resulting from the design process I still have to deal with the same opposition, and I'm certainly not per se a better player. I simply don't buy that "all fgt" is the only way to play ES (the whole cam). Esp. when you are allowed to deploy more air units (5-6) going all fgt is rather a bit of a waste IMO.

For the second part - you do not *want* to buy unit X because of its traits. That's fine, but players always decide pro certain units (mostly because of stats/traits) and - in doing so - against others. That's part of the game, and no problem whatsoever IMO.

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:03 am
by terminator
kondi754 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:49 pm
Borzoj tactics - If 3 units of the T-34 tanks are on hexes adjacent to the hex, where the Tiger, Tiger II or Panther units are located - the German unit has a reduced "Defense against mechanized" factor by 2 points (price: 10 SPs)
Tactics used on the battlefield by T-34 crews in clashes with Tigers and Panthers (1944-45), 2-4 vehicles served as a bait, the rest (6-8) circled the opponent and attacked at once from behind and from all sides. Borzoi was a race of dog used for hunting wolves and bears in Siberia (a dozen or so dogs hunt in a group)
Something like that ?

Capture.JPG
Capture.JPG (176.5 KiB) Viewed 1229 times

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:16 am
by WarHomer
bebro wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:47 am
WarHomer: No offense, but to me this sounds like having a problem with bombers not getting a free shot.

If your attack aircraft take severe damage all the time then you could try to optimize their use. In most scns the enemy is stronger early, later receives only reserve fgt, but not in the same numbers. You could stay away from AI fighters initially, and use your own to fight down enemy air. You could even reserve some air cp for a bomber you might deploy after a couple turns into the scn after things calmed down a bit - again, may not be feasible in all, but in some scns certainly.

There are plenty of things that worked for me, and while I have some insights resulting from the design process I still have to deal with the same opposition, and I'm certainly not per se a better player. I simply don't buy that "all fgt" is the only way to play ES (the whole cam). Esp. when you are allowed to deploy more air units (5-6) going all fgt is rather a bit of a waste IMO.

For the second part - you do not *want* to buy unit X because of its traits. That's fine, but players always decide pro certain units (mostly because of stats/traits) and - in doing so - against others. That's part of the game, and no problem whatsoever IMO.
The Me410 outperforms the tac bombers overall, so again all fighters and maybe a strat bomber on occasion are a much more viable choice. I could "lurk" about with a tac bomber, but that is just not viable as it is too weak and gets insta-targeted even with a fighter escort.

I maintain that the unrealiable trait is too severe and in regard to Kondis remark I don´t wanna (or should have to) mess about with the datafiles.

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 pm
by Horst
According to my test lately, the unreliable trait still only triggers on the move, so affected units are still somewhat useful in defense. Going all Tigers H in Sandstorm is still absolutely not advised though.

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:30 pm
by bebro
WarHomer wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:16 am
The Me410 outperforms the tac bombers overall, so again all fighters and maybe a strat bomber on occasion are a much more viable choice. I could "lurk" about with a tac bomber, but that is just not viable as it is too weak and gets insta-targeted even with a fighter escort.
Interestingly this went from "no room for air diversity (only fighters)" (your earlier post) to "all fighters and maybe a strat bomber" and "more viable"...just sayin' ;)
I maintain that the unrealiable trait is too severe and in regard to Kondis remark I don´t wanna (or should have to) mess about with the datafiles.
I don't ask anyone to mod someth., players can that do or not as they wish.

But at the same time the devs don't need to agree with everything presented as a problem in need of change. If the roster was full of "unreliable" units with no effective alternatives I'd certainly agree, but the glorious number is 2 (for Ger). Both get also upgrades later that do not have that trait.

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:46 pm
by kondi754
terminator wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:03 am
kondi754 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:49 pm
Borzoj tactics - If 3 units of the T-34 tanks are on hexes adjacent to the hex, where the Tiger, Tiger II or Panther units are located - the German unit has a reduced "Defense against mechanized" factor by 2 points (price: 10 SPs)
Tactics used on the battlefield by T-34 crews in clashes with Tigers and Panthers (1944-45), 2-4 vehicles served as a bait, the rest (6-8) circled the opponent and attacked at once from behind and from all sides. Borzoi was a race of dog used for hunting wolves and bears in Siberia (a dozen or so dogs hunt in a group)
Something like that ?


Capture.JPG
They attacked from all sides but using cannons. :lol:
What we can see here is the famous ram attack - very popular near Prokhorovka (apparently it was like that, but when it comes to this battle, there is a lot of ambiguity and ordinary propaganda from the Soviet side, so we don't know for sure :wink: )

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:32 pm
by WarHomer
bebro wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:30 pm
WarHomer wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:16 am
The Me410 outperforms the tac bombers overall, so again all fighters and maybe a strat bomber on occasion are a much more viable choice. I could "lurk" about with a tac bomber, but that is just not viable as it is too weak and gets insta-targeted even with a fighter escort.
Interestingly this went from "no room for air diversity (only fighters)" (your earlier post) to "all fighters and maybe a strat bomber" and "more viable"...just sayin' ;)
I maintain that the unrealiable trait is too severe and in regard to Kondis remark I don´t wanna (or should have to) mess about with the datafiles.
I don't ask anyone to mod someth., players can that do or not as they wish.

But at the same time the devs don't need to agree with everything presented as a problem in need of change. If the roster was full of "unreliable" units with no effective alternatives I'd certainly agree, but the glorious number is 2 (for Ger). Both get also upgrades later that do not have that trait.
I wrote the following earlier and there´s no change in my opinion:

"I don´t agree and have tried all sorts of combos, but the only sustainable way is all fighters and the occasional heavy strat bomber with the defence hero. Tac bombers get immediately targeted and you just spend most of your time repairing."

I also never stated that the unreliable trait is a problem and should be changed, just that IMO it is too severe and limits diversity.

Please dont take this personally, this is just my opinion (just saying :D).

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:00 am
by terminator
kondi754 wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:46 pm
terminator wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:03 am
kondi754 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:49 pm
Borzoj tactics - If 3 units of the T-34 tanks are on hexes adjacent to the hex, where the Tiger, Tiger II or Panther units are located - the German unit has a reduced "Defense against mechanized" factor by 2 points (price: 10 SPs)
Tactics used on the battlefield by T-34 crews in clashes with Tigers and Panthers (1944-45), 2-4 vehicles served as a bait, the rest (6-8) circled the opponent and attacked at once from behind and from all sides. Borzoi was a race of dog used for hunting wolves and bears in Siberia (a dozen or so dogs hunt in a group)
Something like that ?


Capture.JPG
They attacked from all sides but using cannons. :lol:
What we can see here is the famous ram attack - very popular near Prokhorovka (apparently it was like that, but when it comes to this battle, there is a lot of ambiguity and ordinary propaganda from the Soviet side, so we don't know for sure :wink: )
The image is a monument commemorating the battle of Prokhorovka.
There appear to be several in the vicinity of the battle site :

pamyatnik-na-prohorovskom-pole-foto-istoriya-opisanie_6.jpg
pamyatnik-na-prohorovskom-pole-foto-istoriya-opisanie_6.jpg (44.72 KiB) Viewed 1069 times

I don't know if the famous "ram attack" was propaganda or not but what I read is that T-34 tank was better than the Tiger tank in close combat. The Tiger tank was slow moving and its turret had a slow rotation speed.

I’ve never heard that expression "Borzoj tactics". Is this one of your inventions or have you read it somewhere ?

Maybe "ram attack" could be a new Soviet Specialization for the Soviet tanks T-34 ?

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:58 am
by kondi754
Agree, T-34 was better in close combat than Tiger (Sherman was better, too), and this advantage was used in the tactics of Soviet armored units on battlefield (at the company level)
This tactics is often called "Borzoi tactics"
For example, check out Jean Lopez's book, Tcherkassy-Korsun encirclement and battle for Dnieper, 2011, page 130 - the author describes this tactic there

However, ramming was not a tactic but a cry of despair of Soviet tankers
Similarly, Soviet fighter pilots rammed German planes during the air combat because they lacked shooting skills

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 3:40 pm
by terminator
kondi754 wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:58 am
Agree, T-34 was better in close combat than Tiger (Sherman was better, too), and this advantage was used in the tactics of Soviet armored units on battlefield (at the company level)
This tactics is often called "Borzoi tactics"
For example, check out Jean Lopez's book, Tcherkassy-Korsun encirclement and battle for Dnieper, 2011, page 130 - the author describes this tactic there

However, ramming was not a tactic but a cry of despair of Soviet tankers
Similarly, Soviet fighter pilots rammed German planes during the air combat because they lacked shooting skills
I do not have the Jean Lopez's book, "Tcherkassy-Korsun encirclement and battle for Dnieper" :?
Jean Lopez is a French journalist and historian.
Are you French ?

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:06 pm
by kondi754
No, but I know you are :wink:
I read this book in English and I highly appreciate this author
He also wrote very interesting books about Stalingrad and Kursk

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:58 pm
by GUNDOBALDO08
AMG wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 8:33 am
There is a DLC approaching beta phase. More to be announced in the next couple of weeks.

Apologies for the delays and lack of updates, there have been a lot of changes in the background which has help up some developments for Order of Battle. It is still very much alive and kicking.
Couple of weeks are largely passed.. but not any announcement are here... :(

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:24 pm
by GUNDOBALDO08
I guess closed beta has started: nobody is writing here...

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:19 pm
by kondi754
I assure you that nothing is happening
PzC2 beta-test has started