Stat adjustments - next round

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bebro
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Stat adjustments - next round

Post by bebro » Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:55 am

I'm toying with a few more changes:

- StuG A-E artillery range -1

(have range 4 right now, so 3 would still be generous for the short barreled versions)

- most heavy AA guns large air attack -1, or even slightly more (caliber 75mm and above)

(they seem too strong overall, right now you can kill 4 or 5 str from bombers in one go, and get proximity fuse on top as spec)

Feedback welcome :)

terminator
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Re: Stat adjustments - next round

Post by terminator » Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:19 pm

Agree with the changes :)

GabeKnight
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Re: Stat adjustments - next round

Post by GabeKnight » Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:11 pm

terminator wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:19 pm
Agree with the changes :)
Yep. I do, too. :)
bebro wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:55 am
- most heavy AA guns large air attack -1, or even slightly more (caliber 75mm and above)
(they seem too strong overall, right now you can kill 4 or 5 str from bombers in one go, and get proximity fuse on top as spec)
Agree. "18" is just too much. I haven't tried lowering those myself, but I'd guess that going to max. "15" should be sufficient enough.

kondi754
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Re: Stat adjustments - next round

Post by kondi754 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:20 am

It's a good direction of changes

Spotlight22
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Re: Stat adjustments - next round

Post by Spotlight22 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:44 am

Not sure about the AA gun change but I certainly agree with the Stug change.

terminator
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Re: Stat adjustments - next round

Post by terminator » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:06 am

Spotlight22 wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:44 am
Not sure about the AA gun change but I certainly agree with the Stug change.
Like you, it would be nice to have a concrete example with heavy AA guns with large air attack can kill 4 or 5 str from bombers in one go (and get proximity fuse on top as spec).

Andy2012
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Re: Stat adjustments - next round

Post by Andy2012 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:00 pm

I guess this mostly affects balance in multiplayer. How do you multiplayer guys see this?

GabeKnight
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Re: Stat adjustments - next round

Post by GabeKnight » Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:24 pm

terminator wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:06 am
Like you, it would be nice to have a concrete example with heavy AA guns with large air attack can kill 4 or 5 str from bombers in one go (and get proximity fuse on top as spec).
I'm playing RedStar right now and I had a perfect example over Smolensk:
The 9-HP Junkers 88 (2.5 stars exp.) was shot down by two virgin Soviet 85mm M1939 AA in one turn.

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prestidigitation
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Re: Stat adjustments - next round

Post by prestidigitation » Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:59 am

Can you compare the command points on the Cromwell and Sherman in Burma campaign if you are adjusting stats? They have equivalent performance but the Sherman costs 1CP more.

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Re: Stat adjustments - next round

Post by prestidigitation » Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:13 am

I think nerfing the heavy AA is a questionable call.

It has 1 move, meaning it cannot move any distance on its own. Therefore it requires a truck and costs +1 CP relative to the light AA, which is sufficiently foot mobile. It cannot chase enemy air due to extremely limited dismount mobility, especially off road.

When you consider these severe mobility issues and the CP disadvantage it really _should_ perform.

Then there's the consideration of how players and the AI play. When the heavy AA is used by the AI it is to defend a fixed point as part of a tactical puzzle. The player is expected to solve the tactical puzzle by suppressing it with artillery before engaging with air. If it isn't extremely dangerous to heavy bombers then players will simply soak the damage on their bombers. A silly outcome!

When the player uses it, it is generally as part of a mobile offensive. The player is lugging an expensive AA around presumably to defend their artillery. Given how easy it is to garner air superiority in most campaigns with pure air (to the point that several players on the forum declared it was the first time they had tried AA) it seems odd to further diminish an already rare unit.

Finally there's the consideration of artillery. 4-6 range artillery can trivially suppress heavy AA which has a mere 7 artillery defense and cannot move into defensive terrain it doesn't start adjacent to. As the AI -- and most players -- targets the most vulnerable unit, it tends to eat a lot of artillery fire. This can get expensive quick if you aren't very careful with where you place it.

I personally prefer foot mobile light AA and do not use heavy AA. But IMO we should be very cautious about nerfing such a rarely used unit.

terminator
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Re: Stat adjustments - next round

Post by terminator » Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:17 pm

terminator wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:06 am
Spotlight22 wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:44 am
Not sure about the AA gun change but I certainly agree with the Stug change.
Like you, it would be nice to have a concrete example with heavy AA guns with large air attack can kill 4 or 5 str from bombers in one go (and get proximity fuse on top as spec).
Panzer Corps / OoB WWII :

heavy AA guns with large air attack.jpg
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Spotlight22
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Re: Stat adjustments - next round

Post by Spotlight22 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:22 pm

prestidigitation wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:13 am
I think nerfing the heavy AA is a questionable call.

It has 1 move, meaning it cannot move any distance on its own. Therefore it requires a truck and costs +1 CP relative to the light AA, which is sufficiently foot mobile. It cannot chase enemy air due to extremely limited dismount mobility, especially off road.

When you consider these severe mobility issues and the CP disadvantage it really _should_ perform.

Then there's the consideration of how players and the AI play. When the heavy AA is used by the AI it is to defend a fixed point as part of a tactical puzzle. The player is expected to solve the tactical puzzle by suppressing it with artillery before engaging with air. If it isn't extremely dangerous to heavy bombers then players will simply soak the damage on their bombers. A silly outcome!

When the player uses it, it is generally as part of a mobile offensive. The player is lugging an expensive AA around presumably to defend their artillery. Given how easy it is to garner air superiority in most campaigns with pure air (to the point that several players on the forum declared it was the first time they had tried AA) it seems odd to further diminish an already rare unit.

Finally there's the consideration of artillery. 4-6 range artillery can trivially suppress heavy AA which has a mere 7 artillery defense and cannot move into defensive terrain it doesn't start adjacent to. As the AI -- and most players -- targets the most vulnerable unit, it tends to eat a lot of artillery fire. This can get expensive quick if you aren't very careful with where you place it.

I personally prefer foot mobile light AA and do not use heavy AA. But IMO we should be very cautious about nerfing such a rarely used unit.
Great response especially in some scenarios; the Heavy AA placement means you can't just fly in too much, you need to scout out for AA or you will be punished badly- a scenario that especially stands out is Panzerkreigs Stalingrad were the enemy AA is very strategically placed. I suggest going with the stug change and leaving the AA change as stated it's meant to make sure you don't fly in your bombers without thinking and represents significant AA set up.

terminator
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Re: Stat adjustments - next round

Post by terminator » Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:43 pm

I did various tests by reducing the value of air large attack (18(original value) -> 17 -> 16 -> 15):

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GabeKnight
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Re: Stat adjustments - next round

Post by GabeKnight » Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:29 am

terminator wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:43 pm
I did various tests by reducing the value of air large attack (18(original value) -> 17 -> 16 -> 15):
Thanks, Mr. T, nicely done.

On the other hand there are the British Wellingtons... :roll:

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