Winter War 1939 Beta Test

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Erik2
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Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by Erik2 » Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:55 am

BrucErik CSD Studio has put together a Winter War 1939 campaign.

The beta test is over.
You can (always) find the latest version in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=374&t=94345&p=807866#p807866
winter39.jpg
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bru888
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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by bru888 » Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:43 pm

And work has begun on the follow-up campaign: Winter War 1940
- Bru

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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by Zekedia222 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:13 am

It seems as though in the second scenario the air supply doesn’t quite work. The air unit displays red hexes regardless of proximity to air exit. Also, the tanks’ll be interesting to deal with. They see. Like they’ll be tough to deal with, but I suppose I just need to cut them off from supply. Also, for the first scenario, I never got attacked at the bridge. The tanks would drive up as though they would attack, but then just sit there and then drive off. I suspect its due to the AT gun that is adjacent to all of my units. Perhaps upping aggression would solve this?
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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by rafdobrowolski » Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:38 am

Zekedia222 wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:13 am
It seems as though in the second scenario the air supply doesn’t quite work. The air unit displays red hexes regardless of proximity to air exit. Also, the tanks’ll be interesting to deal with. They see. Like they’ll be tough to deal with, but I suppose I just need to cut them off from supply. Also, for the first scenario, I never got attacked at the bridge. The tanks would drive up as though they would attack, but then just sit there and then drive off. I suspect its due to the AT gun that is adjacent to all of my units. Perhaps upping aggression would solve this?
Agreed, on all counts. No attacks at the bridge first scenario. In the second Scenario, I cannot exit the fighter from the field of battle, and I lose it. Additionally the tanks do not show up until the 18th turn.

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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by Erik2 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:57 pm

Guys, thanks for the feedback.

Bruce:
I'll put any edited files in the 'Ready for Bruce' folder in case you want to mess with them.
I'll move them to the proper scenarios folder when a campaign update is due.

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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by bru888 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:47 pm

Erik2 wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:57 pm
Guys, thanks for the feedback.

Bruce:
I'll put any edited files in the 'Ready for Bruce' folder in case you want to mess with them.
I'll move them to the proper scenarios folder when a campaign update is due.
Thanks. I will take a look at them for structural stuff (you continue to decide about gameplay balance issues, please) and access the scenarios in that way. Yours is a timely post; I was just about to download the beta version but now I realize that you could be currently working on the campaign beyond that version. Good idea to use the 'Ready for Bruce' folder for what you want me to take a look at.
- Bru

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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by Erik2 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:59 pm

BTW, I'll test-drive WW 1939 in the new 8.3.6 beta.
It will be nice to finally being able to read messages etc properly on my 4k monitor.

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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by GabeKnight » Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:01 pm

Erik2 wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:59 pm
BTW, I'll test-drive WW 1939 in the new 8.3.6 beta.
It will be nice to finally being able to read messages etc properly on my 4k monitor.
Are you telling me that.... finally....there will be....some scaling....possible???

:shock: :shock: [speechless and struck with awe] :shock: :shock:

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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by bru888 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:49 pm

Erik, it seems from Winter War 39.doc in my folder that you have taken care of matters already. I didn't see any problem with triggers or AI teams, so the aggressiveness upgrade is probably the answer.

I have come to the opinion that there are only 3 meaningful settings for AI aggression:

50 - Advance please, but it's okay to be shy if you detect some issue and want to avoid excessive casualties. It's up to you and we hope you don't mind us asking.

75 - Look here, we really want you to attack but don't destroy yourselves in the process. There's a war to be won, so move out, now! Be safe, though.

99 - Kill, kill, kill! Kill them all! Heeya! Kill yourselves in the process but attack, attack, attack to the last man! Rowrrrr!

:)

Those air exits; was there a setting issue when you were applying them? Issues with them seem to be pervasive recently. As you know, there's no way of checking them, other than routinely replacing them whether they are working or not. Good exit hexes could turn bad with that practice.

I wonder if it is proximity to map edge in this case (02Kollaa). I don't trust those "first full row" hexes even though I've been assured that they work (the partial hexes are definitely off-limits). I would place this one hex lower, left or right:

Screenshot 4.jpg
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Regarding the tanks in 02Kollaa, you may want to bump them up to 75 aggression, too. Also, no big deal but the single Soviet scout is on 0 aggression. Maybe 50? ("It's okay to be shy . . ." :wink: )
- Bru

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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by Zekedia222 » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:31 am

I’ve noticed something in the first scenario. You can deploy Ski infantry on the forward most deployment hexes, and have them retreat to the dense forest down the road from the bridge. Once the tanks approach, you can easily cut them off. I’d almost recommend removing those initial deployment hexes, but that would make the scenario significantly more difficult.

When I was referring to tanks, I was meaning the tanks in the first scenario. The second scenario didn’t have the same issue, but I’m only halfway through that scenario.
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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by bru888 » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:44 am

Zekedia222 wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:31 am
I’ve noticed something in the first scenario. You can deploy Ski infantry on the forward most deployment hexes, and have them retreat to the dense forest down the road from the bridge. Once the tanks approach, you can easily cut them off. I’d almost recommend removing those initial deployment hexes, but that would make the scenario significantly more difficult.

When I was referring to tanks, I was meaning the tanks in the first scenario. The second scenario didn’t have the same issue, but I’m only halfway through that scenario.
I think bumping up the aggression in both scenarios (and hereafter?) to 75 all around may be the answer. As I said above, you don't want kamikaze attacks, but the Soviets should be cocky, confident, and aggressive at this stage of the war.
- Bru

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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by rafdobrowolski » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:55 am

bru888 wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:44 am
I think bumping up the aggression in both scenarios (and hereafter?) to 75 all around may be the answer. As I said above, you don't want kamikaze attacks, but the Soviets should be cocky, confident, and aggressive at this stage of the war.
I would agree. I am the crossroads, playing Kotajarvi right now, having played through Tolvajarvi, Kotisaari, and Uomaa. So far, the Russians are a bit passive and I have been able to succeed with limited difficulty. I think the agressiveness balance has gotten better after the initial scenarios.

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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by bru888 » Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:40 am

You guys are great for helping us test this campaign!
- Bru

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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by rafdobrowolski » Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:10 am

In the Lemetti Road scenario, the "Hold both objectives at scenario end" Secodary Objective does not trigger even though I held both objectvies at the end of the scenario.

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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by bru888 » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:36 pm

rafdobrowolski wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:10 am
In the Lemetti Road scenario, the "Hold both objectives at scenario end" Secodary Objective does not trigger even though I held both objectvies at the end of the scenario.
Erik, please put that one in the Ready for Bru folder and I will take a look at it.
- Bru

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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by Erik2 » Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:21 pm

The air exit issue is a mystery.
I add the same exit to a number of locations and some of them do not work...

BTW, Scouts on Search & Destroy mission with aggression = 0 was a test to see if the Scouts would move all over the map, but not actually do any attacks. I forgot to check if it worked as intended :oops:

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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by gunny » Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:41 pm

One of the best things about this War was it shows the necessity and benefit of having citizens overwhelmingly having a Gun Culture this allows soldiers to be easily trained and familiar with the woods as they are already at ease shooting, hunting, sneaking around, and familiar with a lot of the basics of combat via their hunting and gun familiarization from probably obtained from birth.

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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by bru888 » Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:37 pm

bru888 wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:36 pm
rafdobrowolski wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:10 am
In the Lemetti Road scenario, the "Hold both objectives at scenario end" Secodary Objective does not trigger even though I held both objectvies at the end of the scenario.
Erik, please put that one in the Ready for Bru folder and I will take a look at it.
Found it. My fault. Thanks, rafdobrowolski.

All objective triggers in this scenario evaluate at scenario-end, so timing was not the problem. The "Finland = 2 objectives" trigger was fine but this one was buggy:

Screenshot 1.jpg
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It should have read "VP Type: Primary" and since it was set for "Secondary" objectives, and there aren't any on the map, and this trigger follows "Finland = 2 objectives," it fires at scenario-end like the others, finds no secondary objectives held by Finland, and fails the objective that it just awarded with the "Finland = 2 objectives" trigger.

Erik, I fixed this (and provided objective links to the VP hexes which were missing) and uploaded it to the "Back to Erik" folder. I erased the old version in "Ready for Bru."
- Bru

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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by bru888 » Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:51 pm

Erik, in 07Hevossalmi, I noticed that I neglected to place Finnish air deployment hexes.

(The Soviets don't need them, of course, because they don't use them and this was before I developed that mechanism that makes them "redeploy" (spawn) planes as if returning from off-map air fields. I am not sure whether we should do that in all situations anyway because it does give the AI an advantage - their planes always "come back" fully repaired).

On my copy, I placed three Finnish air deployment hexes here - note the Turns 1 to 18:

Screenshot 1.jpg
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Yes, some dense woods are involved but these are on edges of snow, so the air deployment hex symbols show up better and are just above the air exit hexes:

Screenshot 2.jpg
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If you want me to make this correction on the official copy, place 07Hevossalmi in the "Ready for Bru" folder. Note: The same edit has to be done for HevossalmiAlternate which is, as you will recall, is just a copy of 07Hevossalmi so that the player has the "bonus scenario" option at the end of the campaign. If you want me to do the job, I will leave both the edited 07Hevossalmi and the duplicate HevossalmiAlternate in the "Back to Erik" folder.
- Bru

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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by rafdobrowolski » Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:11 am

I have played the Raate Road scenario twice now, and even though I destroy all the Soviet units, the first Secondary Objective is not met. Are there some hidden sniper units I am not encountering (I doubt it, sicne I sent troops all over the forests...). Where there supposed to be some units that show up as the scenario progresses after the first few turns?

One thing I did notice was that when some troops appear on the right side of the map, they immediately disappear after being placed, not allowing me to kill them, sicne they spawn on an exit hex (at least 2 BT tanks appeared and then disappeared on the Russian exit hex at the right). This might be causing the problem, to be honest.

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