Winter War 1939 Beta Test

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Zekedia222
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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by Zekedia222 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:50 am

I’d recommend going back to an autosave or a save for Raate road right before it ended, and use #orbitalcommand in the command console. That would be an easy way to find out.
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Erik2
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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by Erik2 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:33 am

bru888 wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:51 pm
.....
(The Soviets don't need them, of course, because they don't use them and this was before I developed that mechanism that makes them "redeploy" (spawn) planes as if returning from off-map air fields. I am not sure whether we should do that in all situations anyway because it does give the AI an advantage - their planes always "come back" fully repaired).
...
Please add your Soviet air-repair system wherever applicable.
If enough players complain that it is impossible to win the air-war, we can always replace it with regular exit locations.
07Hevossalmi/HevossalmiAlternate is in your folder.

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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by Erik2 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:42 am

rafdobrowolski wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:11 am
I have played the Raate Road scenario twice now, and even though I destroy all the Soviet units, the first Secondary Objective is not met. Are there some hidden sniper units I am not encountering (I doubt it, sicne I sent troops all over the forests...). Where there supposed to be some units that show up as the scenario progresses after the first few turns?

One thing I did notice was that when some troops appear on the right side of the map, they immediately disappear after being placed, not allowing me to kill them, sicne they spawn on an exit hex (at least 2 BT tanks appeared and then disappeared on the Russian exit hex at the right). This might be causing the problem, to be honest.
You're correct. At least 2 Sov units spawned on the exit hex.
I've changed all target hexes to at least 2 hexes from the exit.

Bru: I've put 16Raate1 in your folder.

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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by bru888 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:54 pm

Erik2 wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:33 am
bru888 wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:51 pm
.....
(The Soviets don't need them, of course, because they don't use them and this was before I developed that mechanism that makes them "redeploy" (spawn) planes as if returning from off-map air fields. I am not sure whether we should do that in all situations anyway because it does give the AI an advantage - their planes always "come back" fully repaired).
...
Please add your Soviet air-repair system wherever applicable.
If enough players complain that it is impossible to win the air-war, we can always replace it with regular exit locations.
Good thought. I figure it this way:

Right now (and has it always been this way or is it a recent bug?), the AI will not redeploy planes no matter how enticed (local, weak prey) and energized (Air Seek & Destroy set high) you make them. Yes, I have tested it with AI air exit hexes allowing redeployment and air deployment hexes correctly set but exited AI planes never reappear. In this manner, the player is actually getting a decidedly unfair advantage.

My system of replicating undeployed (and undestroyed) planes by spawning them comes with the proviso that they "reappear" at full strength. I don't want to presume either way as to damage and repair, although I do assume that the AI would/should fix its planes before regenerating them. In this procedure, however, the advantage swings back slightly to the AI in that it does not have to spend any resources for a fully-restored plane.

The human player must destroy planes in order to stop them from "redeploying" (spawning). I figure that is a challenge that will appear to you. :wink:
- Bru

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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by bru888 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:08 pm

Erik2 wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:33 am
07Hevossalmi/HevossalmiAlternate is in your folder.
Fixed 07Hevossalmi and duplicated the folder for HevossalmiAlternate. Both back in the "Back to Erik" folder and deleted from "Ready for Bru" folder.
- Bru

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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by bru888 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:17 pm

Erik2 wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:42 am
rafdobrowolski wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:11 am
I have played the Raate Road scenario twice now, and even though I destroy all the Soviet units, the first Secondary Objective is not met. Are there some hidden sniper units I am not encountering (I doubt it, sicne I sent troops all over the forests...). Where there supposed to be some units that show up as the scenario progresses after the first few turns?

One thing I did notice was that when some troops appear on the right side of the map, they immediately disappear after being placed, not allowing me to kill them, sicne they spawn on an exit hex (at least 2 BT tanks appeared and then disappeared on the Russian exit hex at the right). This might be causing the problem, to be honest.
You're correct. At least 2 Sov units spawned on the exit hex.
I've changed all target hexes to at least 2 hexes from the exit.

Bru: I've put 16Raate1 in your folder.
rafdobrowolski, you are coming in quite handy! Thanks.

Erik, sure enough, that's the problem. And my error again. Two BT-7 tanks are disappearing immediately, undeploying themselves after being spawned on that hex. I believe that means they are technically still "Alive" when the trigger looks at them, so the objective remains unfulfilled. I fixed them and reloaded 16Raate1 in the "Back to Erik" folder.

The exit hex is meant for the panicky Radio Squad, running away from battle. The same result will apply to this unit (that is, its replacement; it's swapped out for a cargo truck speeding east) in that, if it makes it to the exit hex, it will be undeployed. That will spoil the "Eliminate all Soviet units" objective in the same manner as above but in this case, I think that is fair.

This is atonement for all the times that I may have appeared supercilious (quite unintentionally) in my sweeps of your work. In the studio, the shoe is on the other foot. I have always thought, and frequently expressed the opinion, that campaign and scenario designing is quite complicated, time-consuming, and attention-demanding. Errors must occur, hence beta help from folks like rafdobrowolski is much appreciated.
- Bru

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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by rafdobrowolski » Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:58 am

bru888 wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:17 pm

rafdobrowolski, you are coming in quite handy! Thanks.

Erik, sure enough, that's the problem. And my error again. Two BT-7 tanks are disappearing immediately, undeploying themselves after being spawned on that hex. I believe that means they are technically still "Alive" when the trigger looks at them, so the objective remains unfulfilled. I fixed them and reloaded 16Raate1 in the "Back to Erik" folder.

The exit hex is meant for the panicky Radio Squad, running away from battle. The same result will apply to this unit (that is, its replacement; it's swapped out for a cargo truck speeding east) in that, if it makes it to the exit hex, it will be undeployed. That will spoil the "Eliminate all Soviet units" objective in the same manner as above but in this case, I think that is fair.

This is atonement for all the times that I may have appeared supercilious (quite unintentionally) in my sweeps of your work. In the studio, the shoe is on the other foot. I have always thought, and frequently expressed the opinion, that campaign and scenario designing is quite complicated, time-consuming, and attention-demanding. Errors must occur, hence beta help from folks like rafdobrowolski is much appreciated.
Glad I could help! I am just deeply appreciative of the work you all do to keep me occupied in my free time!

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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by rafdobrowolski » Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:19 am

Just finished Kelja 2 scenario... barely. It appears near impossible to get the second supply truck to the far supply dump on the western sid eof the map in time. It can be done, but it is a very tall order. i also made the mistake of setting my trucks on auto pilot, so the first one, which should go to the far dump in order to make it on time, runs through the supply dump in the center of the map, deploying automatically. and those pill boxes... damn.

Erik2
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Winter War 1939 1.1

Post by Erik2 » Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:14 pm

Winter War 1939 1.1
Link updated in first post.

All scenarios:
Bumped Soviet land AI teams aggression from 50 to 75 where applicable

01Terijoki:
Removed forward Finnish deployment locations
Sov tanks arrive a bit earlier

02Kollaa:
Fixed air exit/deploy
Sov tanks have new orders and arrive a bit earlier

12Uomaa2:
Sec obj fixed

07Hevossalmi/HevossalmiAlternate:
Added Fin air deployment hexes

16Raate1:
Fixed Sov units spawning on exit hex

bru888
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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by bru888 » Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:10 pm

Erik, I have a proposal concerning 14Kemijarvi. As you may recall, on Turn 2, two Soviet bombers are spawned:

Screenshot 1.jpg
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At the same time, the human player is notified and given 3 air command points (one plane) to deal with them, along with the objective to "Eliminate the enemy bombers." This is tough to do with one fighter, as you know. Making matters worse is the disappearing act that AI planes indulge in once their strength or fuel has declined. They exit the map and they don't come back.

Earlier, you said "Please add your Soviet air-repair system wherever applicable." In order to level the playing field, I propose to do so here:

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Screenshot 3.jpg
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As a quid pro quo, however, I also propose to give the human player two fighters instead of one - it's the only way he's going to be able to complete this objective in my opinion:

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Screenshot 7.jpg
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If you agree, please place the official copy of 14Kemijarvi in the "Ready for Bru" folder.
- Bru

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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by Dwightd » Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:09 pm

Version 1.1, Lemetti Road

By turn 8, I have 13 CP that I cannot deploy. There are 30 supply points and I have 29 CP deployed, resulting in a +1 supply condition. So the reinforcements from the last two turns are not doing me any good because I cannot deploy them. So far at turn 8 I am still holding my own :)

Update: Finished the scenario with a Major victory and 21 land CP undeployable, so they obviously were not needed. I spied a supply hex at the bottom of the map and tried to work my way toward it. The Russian infantry cut me off and I did not have enough time to get down there.

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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by bru888 » Sat Feb 29, 2020 1:29 am

Dwightd wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:09 pm
Version 1.1, Lemetti Road

By turn 8, I have 13 CP that I cannot deploy. There are 30 supply points and I have 29 CP deployed, resulting in a +1 supply condition. So the reinforcements from the last two turns are not doing me any good because I cannot deploy them. So far at turn 8 I am still holding my own :)

Update: Finished the scenario with a Major victory and 21 land CP undeployable, so they obviously were not needed. I spied a supply hex at the bottom of the map and tried to work my way toward it. The Russian infantry cut me off and I did not have enough time to get down there.
Dwight, good observation. It's a miscalculation on my part in that, while the Finns start off with 36 land CPs (and generally, land CPs = supply points required), they possess only 30 supply points to start with. Then, in Turns 5, 7, and 9, we add a total of 24 CPs/supply points. That brings the total needed up to 60. The human player should not be penalized for holding those three points by not having enough supply to bring on his reinforcements, and he shouldn't have to reach down south for that out-of-the-way supply point which would be insufficient anyway. Thanks for bringing this up.

Erik, in 12Uomaa2, I recommend changing these supply points to 20 each:

Screenshot 1.jpg
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and, instead of deleting that southwestern 10 supply hex, balance it with one over here in the southeast, "the only other road out of here" and in case one side or the other needs it:

Screenshot 2.jpg
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A few more in-game deployment hexes would also help:

Screenshot 3.jpg
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Place the official copy of 12Uomaa2 in the "Ready for Bru" folder if you agree.
- Bru

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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by Erik2 » Sat Feb 29, 2020 7:45 am

Bru, 14Kemijarvi and 12Uomaa2 are in your folder.

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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by Dwightd » Sat Feb 29, 2020 1:13 pm

Version 1.1, lvl3 scenario Suomossalmi

Just filing another report from the Finnish front. :)

Took all the VP's by turn 4 and cleared the map by turn 8. Set up strong defensive positions until the Russians showed up on turn 10. Cleared the map again by turn 15 for a major victory.

Now you as designers get to decide if that is the result you want on this scenario :wink:

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Winter War 1939 1.2

Post by Erik2 » Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:16 pm

Dwightd, thanks for reporting.

Link updated in first post.

13Soumussalmi2:
Reduced no of Finnish at start command points from 92 to 50.
Changed initial Sov AI tasks.

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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by bru888 » Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:43 pm

Dwightd wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 1:13 pm
Now you as designers get to decide if that is the result you want on this scenario :wink:
That is the result that we always want you to achieve . . . if you are GOOD enough, corporal! :x ( :wink: )

Gameplay balance is by far the most difficult challenge in scenario design. What I always have in mind is that, on the average, a moderately-skilled player playing the scenario on medium difficulty will have a stiff challenge in attaining a Major Victory. Better players will find it easier, of course. Also, some scenarios can be easier, or harder, than others as they are based on historical events.

It's more in a negative sense that we are asking for help here. We want to know which scenarios were too easy or too hard to play. The rest will probably remain in that big grey area in between because it's hard to tell definitively and harder to adjust. Erik usually has a knack for this, as you see he just employed.
- Bru

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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by bru888 » Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:45 pm

Erik2 wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 7:45 am
Bru, 14Kemijarvi and 12Uomaa2 are in your folder.
Done. Old scenarios were removed from "Ready for Bruce" and edited scenarios are now in 'Back to Erik."
- Bru

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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by terminator » Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:08 pm

01Terijoki

What the hell is "Finnish re-entry" :?:

Karelian Isthmus(2).jpg
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The AI really has a lot of trouble trying to cross the bridge whose name I forgot, even my gamer computer starts rowing :roll:
The passage should be widened to try other units to be able to pass the river beside: deep water->frozen lake or river?

Karelian Isthmus(1).jpg
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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by bru888 » Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:26 pm

terminator wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:08 pm
Karelian Isthmus:

What the hell is "Finnish re-entry" :?:
That is the extra hex or two which we provide in these scenarios because many of them lack flagged village hexes. They are for deploying newly purchased units or redeploying restored dead units during the scenario (as opposed to the initial deployment hexes). Sometimes these hexes are marked thusly.
terminator wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:08 pm
The AI really has a lot of trouble trying to cross the bridge whose name I forgot, even my gamer computer starts rowing :roll:
The passage should be widened to try other units to be able to pass the river beside: deep water->frozen lake or river?
I'll let Erik pass judgment on this. The point of this scenario is to have an outnumbered group of Finns prevent the Soviets from rolling on north. That bridge is a key defense point. But the situation is compromised anyway since the Soviets are also coming from north of the river. I figure that stalemate at the bridge does not last long, does it?
- Bru

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Re: Winter War 1939 Beta Test

Post by terminator » Sat Feb 29, 2020 8:51 pm

bru888 wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:26 pm
terminator wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:08 pm
Karelian Isthmus:

What the hell is "Finnish re-entry" :?:
That is the extra hex or two which we provide in these scenarios because many of them lack flagged village hexes. They are for deploying newly purchased units or redeploying restored dead units during the scenario (as opposed to the initial deployment hexes). Sometimes these hexes are marked thusly.
No Supply in that case for the "Finnish re-entry" ?

Capture d’écran (42).jpg
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The T... Bridge looks better like this:

Capture d’écran (43).jpg
Capture d’écran (43).jpg (284.91 KiB) Viewed 402 times

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